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2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

MattS said:
I didn't say it was an either/or situation. I thought it was obvious that I was saying it was a waste to make it the country's top priority without parents taking responsibility. I guess you somehow extrapolated that into me thinking the Government shouldn't spend any money on education. Maybe you should spend less time trying to impress us with fancy wording like "minarchist tropes", and more time reading what is actually written.
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Um, I was agreeing with you. Try to keep up.

And please leave the Dime Store Populist rhetoric to the guys here who really hate that durned learnin'. They're much better at it because they've been resenting post-secondary ideas all their lives.

In other news, the last intellectual rationale for trickle down collapses. Inequality slows the growth of a capitalist economy. Which, I know, is obvious, but don't tell that to the GOP.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

MattS said:
Off the top of my head....National security (the real kind, not the BS that is was/currently being done), ensuring an equal opportunity for everyone, protecting civil liberties. I suppose I could come up with more but I don't feel like it. My point more specifically is that the Government can throw all of the money it has (or can borrow) at education and it's not going to make a difference until parents take responsibility for their children and their education.
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Still waiting to see anyone who believes that parent shouldn't have a big role in their childs education...

Do you know why the US is in the can right now? Because US business is challenged with higher priced labor...for the quality...vs the rest of the world. Its unlikely that we'll be able to ask the entire country to halve its salary...so we better have the best skills on the planet. The war will absolutely be in the marketplace. And the only real answer to make it through is to deliver our people the tools with which to succeed. Without success there, it doesn't matter what we do...there will be no federal funds to spend on anything.

In fact, much of our problem today is that to many Americans have your point of view. The US is saddled with half of the world's military budget. Not only is that a massive drain on our business competitiveness...but from the average persons lifestyle as well. And what's the benefit for the day to day? A tank or plane that sits and rusts? Besides if you're only expectation of govt is that it delivers civil liberties...you're signing up for total failure by any quality of life measure faster than you can say unemployment.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

5mn_Major said:
Still waiting to see anyone who believes that parent shouldn't have a big role in their childs education...

Do you know why the US is in the can right now? Because US business is challenged with higher priced labor...for the quality...vs the rest of the world. Its unlikely that we'll be able to ask the entire country to halve its salary...so we better have the best skills on the planet. The war will absolutely be in the marketplace. And the only real answer to make it through is to deliver our people the tools with which to succeed. Without success there, it doesn't matter what we do...there will be no federal funds to spend on anything.

In fact, much of our problem today is that to many Americans have your point of view. The US is saddled with half of the world's military budget. Not only is that a massive drain on our business competitiveness...but from the average persons lifestyle as well. And what's the benefit for the day to day? A tank or plane that sits and rusts? Besides if you're only expectation of govt is that it delivers civil liberties...you're signing up for total failure by any quality of life measure faster than you can say unemployment.
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You and Kep are acting very similar today. Reading what you want and not what I wrote. I didn't say the defense spending and civil liberties were the only expectation of the government, just a couple of examples and that I was too lazy to come up with a complete list. I also stated specifically that while I think national security is important I don't believe in what was and is currently being done. How in the world you got out of that statement that I think we need some gigantic military is beyond me.

Oh and there are a lot of reasons why the US is "in the can right now", not just high priced labor.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

MattS said:
You and Kep are acting very similar today. Reading what you want and not what I wrote.
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This is probably a bad line to pursue, but I'm actually pretty sure I misread you in a different way than you think I misread you. I was "agreeing" with you that government has a place in education but it is not the highest priority. You objected that I was accusing you of being a minarchist (I can't help you if you think this word is "fancy" -- it's a word, it has a specific meaning, it's appropriate). I rebutted that I was agreeing with you the way I stated, and then you objected to that, stating you were, basically, a minarchist.

I do think if you think you're getting regularly misunderstood by everybody the problem might not be the "everybody" part. You may just be on a hair-trigger today. And I say that as somebody who has plenty of those days.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Kepler said:
This is probably a bad line to pursue, but I'm actually pretty sure I misread you in a different way than you think I misread you.
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Maybe I did. I took your original post about my comments to mean that you thought I was stating government involvement in education to be an either/or situation which I objected to. I have no idea where or how I am stated or implied that I was minarchist. Yeah, I think minarchist is a fancy word for a libertarian.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

MattS said:
Yeah, I think minarchist is a fancy word for a libertarian.
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OK, that's fair. I think of them as subset / superset. I think of minarchists as people who read Larry Niven for the politics.

Also, I'll admit I actually used to hate the word "trope" because of PoMo and semiotics, but this is now my favorite website so it just rolls off the tongue. :D
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Kepler said:
OK, that's fair. I think of them as subset / superset. I think of minarchists as people who read Larry Niven for the politics.

Also, I'll admit I actually used to hate the word "trope" because of PoMo and semiotics, but this is now my favorite website so it just rolls off the tongue. :D
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I prefer Heinlein for the politics. Does that make me a right wing extremist?
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

If its not security, defense, military...whatever you call it...

I'd still like to hear from anyone what higher long term priority there is for this country than education.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

5mn_Major said:
If its not security, defense, military...whatever you call it...

I'd still like to hear from anyone what higher long term priority there is for this country than education.
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We live in a country that doesn't understand the scientific method and how it is applied to knowing about the world around us. You really think education has EVER been a priority in this country?

The only place education is a priority is a place where education nets a profit. That's why we still "luckily" have most of the finer institutions of higher learning in the world.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

ScoobyDoo said:
We live in a country that doesn't understand the scientific method and how it is applied to knowing about the world around us.
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I'm pretty sure that's every country. Texans pray to Jesus for rain. The Russians believe in evil tree spirits. The Japanese believe their dead ancestors are ceiling cats. The Chinese roll bones to tell the future. Western Europeans fell for Heidegger.

Every nation is three missed meal away from the Wicker Man.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

MattS said:
Oh and there are a lot of reasons why the US is "in the can right now", not just high priced labor.
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I'd argue the biggest factor right now is psychology. If most people / businesses are pessimistic about the future, they won't spend and won't hire no matter what their current financial situation is.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

5mn_Major said:
If its not security, defense, military...whatever you call it...

I'd still like to hear from anyone what higher long term priority there is for this country than education.
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That's a terrible question because you could get 100% of the people agreeing with its premise, while half would be thinking it's the highest long-term priority for this country's people, and the other half thinking it's the highest long-term priority for the U.S. government. Quality of education has no correlation at all to increasing government spending on education, which (I suspect) is your primary want. (see: the last 40 years of skyrocketing "investment" in education and its sad result)
The real question is do we want the government to be even more intrusive and powerful in the lives of our family members, or less so?
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

geezer said:
That's a terrible question because you could get 100% of the people agreeing with its premise, while half would be thinking it's the highest long-term priority for this country's people, and the other half thinking it's the highest long-term priority for the U.S. government.
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Unless the private sector can't supply it...the people's top need should be the governments top responsibility. No?

I've seen nothing for me to believe that the private sector is going to provide 100% of US children an adequate education.

geezer said:
Quality of education has no correlation at all to increasing government spending on education, which (I suspect) is your primary want. (see: the last 40 years of skyrocketing "investment" in education and its sad result)
The real question is do we want the government to be even more intrusive and powerful in the lives of our family members, or less so?
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The last 40 years has led to skyrocketing challenges in educating America.

And yes, we've been through this many times before...there is a strong correlation between states that spend significantly on education and successful education.

States Ranked K-12 Best to Worst on Science Education
CREDIT: Statistical Research Center | The American Institute of Physics

seri_scores.png
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

5mn_Major said:
States Ranked K-12 Best to Worst on Science Education
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Note the headline of this "study". There are two glaring problems. Unless you feel (and I won't argue about it) that states should have less autonomy in education. Then there's just one glaring problem.
 
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