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2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

GreatLakerMohawk said:
Sometimes the BBWAA screws things up royally... Just like how they might with Bert and Raines.
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There is not doubt that the BBWAA can and has screwed up in the past by delaying inductions. That being said, what player voted in by the Veterans Committee really deserved that honor? I cannot think of one right now.
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Bob Gray said:
Glad to see you concede the point. :p

Don't see much St. Louis Browns' representation there anyway.
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I wasn't really sticking up too hard for Gordon anyhow - and besides, players like Gordon can only be voted on once every five years now anyhow making it even stranger that he got the call.
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Rover said:
I'll bet those top scoring NL teams also led the league in RBI's too :D which you think is a meaningless stat???
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They led the league in RBI because they had men on base and hit with power, not because they hit for a high batting average (which was the points) or because their players had some innate "driving in runs" ability or hit behind the runner or bunted a lot. But, you know, way to change the subject. It's ironic that you constantly talk about how I'm too young to have seen players that I'm talking about, and yet you're the one who's unable to carry on a connected conversation like a grownup.
Not sure what your Grich obsession is. He was a good, solid player you'd love to have on your team. Not a Hall of Famer, but nonetheless a good player. Interesting that in his best years you were what....being born and...4 or 5 years old? Yup, I'm sure that qualifies you to know more than people who watched him play. :rolleyes:
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I'm not obsessed with Grich, nor am I saying that he should be in the Hall of Fame. He's certainly not in the same class as Barry Larkin or Robbie Alomar, or even Alan Trammell. (Though if one were inclined to make a case for him, the fact that he was probably the best 2B in the AL for a solid six or seven years would be a good starting point.) I brought him up as an example of a player who was underrated during his playing days because his skills were underappreciated at the time. And again, I don't need to have watched him play to recognize the value of the skills he brought, but there you go copping that dismissive attitude again. Theo Epstein and Jon Daniels and Kim Ng probably never watched Bobby Grich play either, but I'd darn sure trust their ability to evaluate him and other players from that era over yours or Jon Heyman's.
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

GreatLakerMohawk said:
I wasn't really sticking up too hard for Gordon anyhow - and besides, players like Gordon can only be voted on once every five years now anyhow making it even stranger that he got the call.
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Fair enough. I just picture an old Yankee on the Veterans Committee, like Yogi Berra or Whitey Ford lobbying for inclusion of Gordon, while Stephens likely has no such lobby. Really, I've never been impressed by the Veteran's Committee, and won't be until their actions make me think otherwise.
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Bob Gray said:
Fair enough. I just picture an old Yankee on the Veterans Committee, like Yogi Berra or Whitey Ford lobbying for inclusion of Gordon, while Stephens likely has no such lobby. Really, I've never been impressed by the Veteran's Committee, and won't be until their actions make me think otherwise.
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Just wait until all those old Cincinnati Reds get Dave Concepcion in the Hall of Fame.
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

GreatLakerMohawk said:
Just wait until all those old Cincinnati Reds get Dave Concepcion in the Hall of Fame.
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I'm just assuming he'll get in. I'm wondering if they can pull of getting George Foster in also.

And, hey, that Cesar Geronimo was quite a fielder! :D
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

True Blue Fan said:
There is not doubt that the BBWAA can and has screwed up in the past by delaying inductions. That being said, what player voted in by the Veterans Committee really deserved that honor? I cannot think of one right now.
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That's an interesting question, actually. I think you have to start by separating out Negro League players voted in by the VC, since they were, by and large, not considered for election by the BBWAA. That includes (forgive me if I leave anyone out) Rube Foster, Ray Dandridge, Leon Day, Bill Foster, Bullet Joe Rogan, Smokey Joe Williams, Turkey Stearnes and Hilton Smith.

Beyond that, I think you also have to separate out VC inductees from before a certain point in time, because I don't think there was the same nepotism going on, and at least some of the inductees were big names like Lou Gehrig and Cap Anson and John McGraw. And then obviously you separate out managers and executives and umpires since that's not who we're talking about.

So let's say we're talking about former MLB players voted in by the VC from 1960 through 2001. Guys in that category I'd be inclined to say deserved induction include Larry Doby (probably the strongest case of all), Bobby Doerr, Pee Wee Reese, Arky Vaughan and Jim Bunning.
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

jmh said:
It's ironic that you constantly talk about how I'm too young to have seen players that I'm talking about, and yet you're the one who's unable to carry on a connected conversation like a grownup.
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Or, you are now taking a hissy fit because somebody disagrees with your slavish devotion to one stat over everything else. What's funny about all of this is that 20 years from now some 18 year old dork who's an apostle of a whole new generation of stats is going to be arguing with you about players that you saw play and he didn't, and telling you your favorite stats are meaningless. :D My guess is you'll react to that the same way you are now, with a lot of whining.

jmh said:
Theo Epstein and Jon Daniels and Kim Ng probably never watched Bobby Grich play either, but I'd darn sure trust their ability to evaluate him and other players from that era over yours or Jon Heyman's.
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??? What does Theo Epstein, etc have to do with this? Do you advise these people personally? Or do you have inside knowledge that they rank OPS as the one and only stat used to evaluate players, as you apparently do? Love to see you explain this one. :rolleyes: If any of these people believed that stat reviews are all that's needed to evaluate ball players then.....why do they still have a scouting staff???????
 
Re: 2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Class

Rover said:
??? What does Theo Epstein, etc have to do with this? Do you advise these people personally? Or do you have inside knowledge that they rank OPS as the one and only stat used to evaluate players, as you apparently do? Love to see you explain this one. :rolleyes: If any of these people believed that stat reviews are all that's needed to evaluate ball players then.....why do they still have a scouting staff???????
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If you told him you could only evaluate players based on batting average or OPS which way do you think he'd go? OPS easily since it tends to be a better indicator in performance at the plate.

I hardly think anybody is saying that statistics is the end-all and be-all here. You keep clinging to Batting Average, Runs, and RBIs like its something worth protecting. Why are they any better than the rest?
 
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