Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
Could be. I'm sure there are studies; we should do a lit review.
Could be. I'm sure there are studies; we should do a lit review.
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115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
- Thread starter joecct
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
Let's be specific.
1. Learn what?
2. And what actions are possible given that knowledge?
3. And how does that affect strategy going forward?
It seems to me you are saying don't run women because the country is sexist and they'll lose by definition. I don't accept that and I don't think I'm being naive. I fully agree there are large portions of the electorate who would not vote for a woman precisely because she is a woman, but I also believe (without any peer-review data) that the vast majority of those voters are already straight ticket Republicans, as one would expect from reactionaries.
I can think of one group that's an exception: black fundamentalist Christians. They do seem to have been infected by the same "the man is the master" Biblical argle bargle as the other Thumpers. But I'm thinkin' they also don't really have a choice: they aren't going to vote for the party that literally is wishing them dead from cops and wars and abysmal poverty.
Let's be specific.
1. Learn what?
2. And what actions are possible given that knowledge?
3. And how does that affect strategy going forward?
It seems to me you are saying don't run women because the country is sexist and they'll lose by definition. I don't accept that and I don't think I'm being naive. I fully agree there are large portions of the electorate who would not vote for a woman precisely because she is a woman, but I also believe (without any peer-review data) that the vast majority of those voters are already straight ticket Republicans, as one would expect from reactionaries.
I can think of one group that's an exception: black fundamentalist Christians. They do seem to have been infected by the same "the man is the master" Biblical argle bargle as the other Thumpers. But I'm thinkin' they also don't really have a choice: they aren't going to vote for the party that literally is wishing them dead from cops and wars and abysmal poverty.
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
Time will tell. Its possible the left (defined as anybody from the center all the way over to the vegan co-op) has learned for the 2nd time in 16 years the brutal lesson that sitting out elections and handing total power over to the GOP is a fuking disaster. I can't say one way or the other. Even if Dems rise up in 2020 and send Chump packing, will they then come back in 2022 or will they continue to not do mid-terms when their party is in the WH? Will they re-elect a Dem and then sit out the general election after 8 years? Again, don't know. Republicans will continue to get more and more extreme. 10 years from now whoever the GOP nominee is will make Chump look like Eisenhower. Its on all of the left to keep up the fight.
Time will tell. Its possible the left (defined as anybody from the center all the way over to the vegan co-op) has learned for the 2nd time in 16 years the brutal lesson that sitting out elections and handing total power over to the GOP is a fuking disaster. I can't say one way or the other. Even if Dems rise up in 2020 and send Chump packing, will they then come back in 2022 or will they continue to not do mid-terms when their party is in the WH? Will they re-elect a Dem and then sit out the general election after 8 years? Again, don't know. Republicans will continue to get more and more extreme. 10 years from now whoever the GOP nominee is will make Chump look like Eisenhower. Its on all of the left to keep up the fight.
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
If this were an estimation of intent, we would be discussing express and implied intent. I have no way of knowing, but I'd guess the numbers are quite a bit higher for both racism and sexism if you take into account prejudices which affect the choices people make but which are less "overt." And I suspect you guys already made an effort to define what you call "racism" and "sexism," taking into account what might be just called biases. But it may be that you all are looking at different parts of the elephant here.
It's a worthwhile discussion, though--especially if it gets our danders up a little.
If this were an estimation of intent, we would be discussing express and implied intent. I have no way of knowing, but I'd guess the numbers are quite a bit higher for both racism and sexism if you take into account prejudices which affect the choices people make but which are less "overt." And I suspect you guys already made an effort to define what you call "racism" and "sexism," taking into account what might be just called biases. But it may be that you all are looking at different parts of the elephant here.
It's a worthwhile discussion, though--especially if it gets our danders up a little.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
As Old Pio would say, the flack is thickest over the target.
My 1/19 came from a back of the envelope guess that the nation's sexism is 10%. If it's 30% those numbers are 3/57.
Good point that sexism and racism and homophobia are not binary -- they are spectra, and everybody falls somewhere from shall we say {-1.0.. 1.0} (where the negative numbers are the reverse of the typical bigotry -- yes, there are people who hate men and whites and straights, although not nearly the number or with the intensity that those poor victims imagine.
The resulting relation of the intensity of these bigotries would look more like a contour map than a simple line.
As Old Pio would say, the flack is thickest over the target.
My 1/19 came from a back of the envelope guess that the nation's sexism is 10%. If it's 30% those numbers are 3/57.
Good point that sexism and racism and homophobia are not binary -- they are spectra, and everybody falls somewhere from shall we say {-1.0.. 1.0} (where the negative numbers are the reverse of the typical bigotry -- yes, there are people who hate men and whites and straights, although not nearly the number or with the intensity that those poor victims imagine.
The resulting relation of the intensity of these bigotries would look more like a contour map than a simple line.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
I would say the number one thing liberals need to learn is you don't always get 100% of what you want. And if that's your standard and you're going to vote for Stein's or Nader's because of it you're going to be living in a country run by Trump's your entire life.
Being Susan Sarandon and not voting for Hillary out of spite gets you NOTHING.
Until they learn that, there is no hope.
I would say the number one thing liberals need to learn is you don't always get 100% of what you want. And if that's your standard and you're going to vote for Stein's or Nader's because of it you're going to be living in a country run by Trump's your entire life.
Being Susan Sarandon and not voting for Hillary out of spite gets you NOTHING.
Until they learn that, there is no hope.
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
I like this place.
No, that's me!!!
I like this place.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
Also lol at Kepler being sexist. He's like the only person on this board that even talks about feminist issues and made a thread about it on a board that is like 98% men. You're basically proving my point for me so thanks I guess.
Nobody made that point, not even me. Obviously in any large group you're gonna find the outer tips of the bell curve. There are plenty of feminists who support his movement or a left agenda though and I would argue they're probably more in tune with that movement than centrists honestly. It's kinda hard to be for single payer and be worse on feminist issues than someone who isn't.
I remember when Hillary was asked if Barack was a muslim and she responded, "you'd have to ask him!" and then went on to say how she wouldn't associate with Revered Right. And that whole thing where she said she'd stay in the 2008 race in case Obama gets shot. So yeah, the knucks are annoying
Also lol at Kepler being sexist. He's like the only person on this board that even talks about feminist issues and made a thread about it on a board that is like 98% men. You're basically proving my point for me so thanks I guess.
"Both sides were wrong in Charlottesville!"
Nobody made that point, not even me. Obviously in any large group you're gonna find the outer tips of the bell curve. There are plenty of feminists who support his movement or a left agenda though and I would argue they're probably more in tune with that movement than centrists honestly. It's kinda hard to be for single payer and be worse on feminist issues than someone who isn't.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
Yes. That's it exactly.
Yes. That's it exactly.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Yes. That's it exactly.
Sorry but it's true. Any time someone even hints that elements of the left are sexist or racist you shoot it down immediately.
I don't think you are sexist or racist though that is just Rover trolling.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Me too...
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
I don't think "elements" of the Left are sexist or racist. I think individuals are.
Though I just made one exception: black fundies sure seem pretty sexist. And northeastern urban Jews and blacks, both stallwart left, don't seem to care for one another very much, so that gives us some racism and anti-Semitism, respectively.
But I don't think those are pervasive problems in the way that, say, white Republicans are racist or male (and actually many female) Republicans are sexist. Not only are you talking about smaller groups within the coalition, but also a smaller degree of infection within those groups.
The right has a huge problem with racism and sexism and homophobia. The left has a moderate problem with the same. But we are comparing a head cold with Bubonic plague.
I don't think "elements" of the Left are sexist or racist. I think individuals are.
Though I just made one exception: black fundies sure seem pretty sexist. And northeastern urban Jews and blacks, both stallwart left, don't seem to care for one another very much, so that gives us some racism and anti-Semitism, respectively.
But I don't think those are pervasive problems in the way that, say, white Republicans are racist or male (and actually many female) Republicans are sexist. Not only are you talking about smaller groups within the coalition, but also a smaller degree of infection within those groups.
The right has a huge problem with racism and sexism and homophobia. The left has a moderate problem with the same. But we are comparing a head cold with Bubonic plague.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
unofan
Well-known member
You commented on his love for Jan Brewer, he implied an insult to his wife in that comment, then somehow imputed that invented insult on to me, and then carried a grudge over that completely imagined insult with him for years until he left.
Yeah, this board is better off without martyr Bob.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
The same mouth-breathers that wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a woman are the same that didn't vote for Obama because he was black/a Muslim yet he still won. Twice. She simply didn't energize the base, marginalized too many on the fence and sadly because Trump was such a horscrap candidate too many assumed she'd easily win and stayed home. Anyone arguing otherwise needs to stop feeling sorry for themselves, to get a freaking clue, to grow the hell up and to finally move on to take care of business moving forward.
The same mouth-breathers that wouldn't vote for Hillary because she's a woman are the same that didn't vote for Obama because he was black/a Muslim yet he still won. Twice. She simply didn't energize the base, marginalized too many on the fence and sadly because Trump was such a horscrap candidate too many assumed she'd easily win and stayed home. Anyone arguing otherwise needs to stop feeling sorry for themselves, to get a freaking clue, to grow the hell up and to finally move on to take care of business moving forward.
trixR4kids
Well-known member
Well said!
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: 115th Congress - Fantastik! Try to remember we vote in November.
Then the base needs to suffer more. Like four more years of trump kind of suffering. And maybe another’s eight of Ted Cruz or Mike Pence. Because being having sexist tendencies is probably a marginally better excuse than being unable to recognize an existential threat.
ETA: I should clarify. When I says sexist tendencies are better, I meant they’re fixable. Stupidity that bad is terminal.
Then the base needs to suffer more. Like four more years of trump kind of suffering. And maybe another’s eight of Ted Cruz or Mike Pence. Because being having sexist tendencies is probably a marginally better excuse than being unable to recognize an existential threat.
ETA: I should clarify. When I says sexist tendencies are better, I meant they’re fixable. Stupidity that bad is terminal.
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