Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
There's the big rub. And that's a BIG friggin' rub.
There's the big rub. And that's a BIG friggin' rub.
USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
- Thread starter FlagDUDE08
- Start date
- Status
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
Toronto USA
Toronto USA
unofan
Well-known member
No, it's not. Having a duty to retreat from anywhere other than your own home was just fine. The law should place a premium on avoiding violence where feasible.
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
Again, using the cliche (but also taking into account other situations IN CONTEXT), if it's the other person or me, and I TRULY feel that, and it's SENSIBLE that I feel that as judged by my peers...I'm doing what I can to keep me alive.
As I said, IN PRINCIPLE, it's a good law. In PRACTICE in today's world? It's a mess.
Again, using the cliche (but also taking into account other situations IN CONTEXT), if it's the other person or me, and I TRULY feel that, and it's SENSIBLE that I feel that as judged by my peers...I'm doing what I can to keep me alive.
As I said, IN PRINCIPLE, it's a good law. In PRACTICE in today's world? It's a mess.
state of hockey
He fixes the cable?
I also believe that the law was intended for actual fight or die situations. However, if it can now be used to excuse this kind of garbage, it needs to be repealed. Back to the drawing board on this one.
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
I hear you say in principle. But in principle, it still allows somebody to legally shoot someone else whom they provoked into anger. In principle, it still rewards escalating an altercation to a killing. These makes it bad in principle - because it heightens the total loss of life.
The only explicable reason I would think one could judge that its good in PRINCIPLE...is because they are strictly looking at it from the shooters pov. And Brent, that's the only pov you offered in discussing 'in principle'.
I hear you say in principle. But in principle, it still allows somebody to legally shoot someone else whom they provoked into anger. In principle, it still rewards escalating an altercation to a killing. These makes it bad in principle - because it heightens the total loss of life.
The only explicable reason I would think one could judge that its good in PRINCIPLE...is because they are strictly looking at it from the shooters pov. And Brent, that's the only pov you offered in discussing 'in principle'.
unofan
Well-known member
Self defense was already a thing. SYG is different. It's NRA porn in law form.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
I don't know that it rewards it so much as it significantly reduces the "geez, maybe I should give this a second thought" factor before you just decide to start blasting away at someone.
When I first saw that video, "escalation" was the exact word that came to mind. The total and complete escalation of douchiness was unbelievable. The guy parks in a handicap stall even though no handicap appears obvious. Then some other jerk decides to get up in their face about it, which then leads to the pretty violent shove, followed by the meaningless shooting death.
As many of you know, I am a gun owner, and I've had any number of friends and relatives ask me over the years whether I own a handgun or have acquired a conceal/carry permit. My response is always the same, and this incident is a perfect example of that. No, I don't own a handgun and I have no interest in carrying one, for the precise reason that I might, at some point, foolishly decide I need to use it.
I don't know that it rewards it so much as it significantly reduces the "geez, maybe I should give this a second thought" factor before you just decide to start blasting away at someone.
When I first saw that video, "escalation" was the exact word that came to mind. The total and complete escalation of douchiness was unbelievable. The guy parks in a handicap stall even though no handicap appears obvious. Then some other jerk decides to get up in their face about it, which then leads to the pretty violent shove, followed by the meaningless shooting death.
As many of you know, I am a gun owner, and I've had any number of friends and relatives ask me over the years whether I own a handgun or have acquired a conceal/carry permit. My response is always the same, and this incident is a perfect example of that. No, I don't own a handgun and I have no interest in carrying one, for the precise reason that I might, at some point, foolishly decide I need to use it.
rufus
rock and roller
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
You can't quantify their fear, cause in this day and age, you don't know who might be armed with a gun. If there was a reasonable expectation that the other person doesn't have a gun(like your yearned for days back in the 50's, when men settled it with their fists) then there is less fear. Less fear leads to less escalation.
If someone is pointing a gun at you, the law is pretty clear to your rights, regardless of any SYG law.
You can't quantify their fear, cause in this day and age, you don't know who might be armed with a gun. If there was a reasonable expectation that the other person doesn't have a gun(like your yearned for days back in the 50's, when men settled it with their fists) then there is less fear. Less fear leads to less escalation.
If someone is pointing a gun at you, the law is pretty clear to your rights, regardless of any SYG law.
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
Toronto
2 dead + shooter. 12 wounded in a shooting in Greektown.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...jured-gunman-killed-in-toronto-mass-shooting/
Toronto
2 dead + shooter. 12 wounded in a shooting in Greektown.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...jured-gunman-killed-in-toronto-mass-shooting/
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
With a split second intuition decision, 'geeze, maybe I should give this a second thought' can be life or death. Regardless, you are not like these other dudes. I can't definitively determine whether someone who is violent and unstable just loses the 'geeze' factor...or whether they they use it as a tool to kill others of a different race.
But see that's instigated by SYG - the knowledge that if they could provoke inflammatory behavior...they had the power of life or death without legal recourse against them. First, SYG gave someone with a gun, the confidence to go back over and over to that spot to 'initiate a confrontation' out of thin air. Second, SYG gave them the guts to not just question behavior but to 'escalate' to emotional, inflammatory comments (at least to Kelly). Third, when the other party was provoked to a physical push SYG gave reassurance that 'escalating' the situation to a killing was lawful and therefore implicitly acceptable in society.
The outcome of not even being questioned now gives copycats the comfort and knowledge that they can do the same thing - just the outcome of this incident will likely create future needless, 'justified' murders based on whatever.
With a split second intuition decision, 'geeze, maybe I should give this a second thought' can be life or death. Regardless, you are not like these other dudes. I can't definitively determine whether someone who is violent and unstable just loses the 'geeze' factor...or whether they they use it as a tool to kill others of a different race.
But see that's instigated by SYG - the knowledge that if they could provoke inflammatory behavior...they had the power of life or death without legal recourse against them. First, SYG gave someone with a gun, the confidence to go back over and over to that spot to 'initiate a confrontation' out of thin air. Second, SYG gave them the guts to not just question behavior but to 'escalate' to emotional, inflammatory comments (at least to Kelly). Third, when the other party was provoked to a physical push SYG gave reassurance that 'escalating' the situation to a killing was lawful and therefore implicitly acceptable in society.
The outcome of not even being questioned now gives copycats the comfort and knowledge that they can do the same thing - just the outcome of this incident will likely create future needless, 'justified' murders based on whatever.
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
My city is going to hell at the point of a gun.
The mayor and two city councilors from the Greektown area were aghast at last night's violence -- as they should be. The left-dominated City Council has done everything it can, along with the willing complacency of the mayor, to handcuff police at every turn and prevent them from being able to do their jobs and get the guns and criminals off the streets.
Council and the thankfully now defeated Liberal provincial government banned officers from questioning people on the street -- the libs call it "carding" -- we called it proactive policing. As a result, gang bangers of all colors are not afraid to be packing and to open fire on anyone and everywhere. There's rarely a day goes by without the story of another shooting, especially in the many entertainment areas like Greektown, Leslieville and the Entertainment District a stone's throw from Rogers Place and Scotiabank Arena (aka the Air Canada Center)
While it's too early to tell if this shooter was a whack job or had an agenda, the fact remains that "Toronto the Good" isn't, and that makes me mad and sad on so many levels.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Super raw & clear Video of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Toronto?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Toronto</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Danforth?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Danforth</a> shooter via @arilanise on Instagram. <a href="https://t.co/6cbrDFHSOX">pic.twitter.com/6cbrDFHSOX</a></p>— Stilez (@stilez) <a href="https://twitter.com/stilez/status/1021242759401779201?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 23, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
My city is going to hell at the point of a gun.
The mayor and two city councilors from the Greektown area were aghast at last night's violence -- as they should be. The left-dominated City Council has done everything it can, along with the willing complacency of the mayor, to handcuff police at every turn and prevent them from being able to do their jobs and get the guns and criminals off the streets.
Council and the thankfully now defeated Liberal provincial government banned officers from questioning people on the street -- the libs call it "carding" -- we called it proactive policing. As a result, gang bangers of all colors are not afraid to be packing and to open fire on anyone and everywhere. There's rarely a day goes by without the story of another shooting, especially in the many entertainment areas like Greektown, Leslieville and the Entertainment District a stone's throw from Rogers Place and Scotiabank Arena (aka the Air Canada Center)
While it's too early to tell if this shooter was a whack job or had an agenda, the fact remains that "Toronto the Good" isn't, and that makes me mad and sad on so many levels.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Super raw & clear Video of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Toronto?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Toronto</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Danforth?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Danforth</a> shooter via @arilanise on Instagram. <a href="https://t.co/6cbrDFHSOX">pic.twitter.com/6cbrDFHSOX</a></p>— Stilez (@stilez) <a href="https://twitter.com/stilez/status/1021242759401779201?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 23, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Last edited:
unofan
Well-known member
My city is going to hell at the point of a gun.
The mayor and two city councilors from the Greektown area were aghast at last night's violence -- as they should be. The left-dominated City Council has done everything it can, along with the willing complacency of the mayor, to handcuff police at every turn and prevent them from being able to do their jobs and get the guns and criminals off the streets.
Council and the thankfully now defeated Liberal provincial government banned officers from questioning people on the street -- the libs call it "carding" -- we called it proactive policing. As a result, gang bangers of all colors are not afraid to be packing and to open fire on anyone and everywhere. There's rarely a day goes by without the story of another shooting, especially in the many entertainment areas like Greektown, Leslieville and the Entertainment District a stone's throw from Rogers Place and Scotiabank Arena (aka the Air Canada Center)
While it's too early to tell if this shooter was a whack job or had an agenda, the fact remains that "Toronto the Good" isn't, and that makes me mad and sad on so many levels.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Super raw & clear Video of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Toronto?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Toronto</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Danforth?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Danforth</a> shooter via @arilanise on Instagram. <a href="https://t.co/6cbrDFHSOX">pic.twitter.com/6cbrDFHSOX</a></p>— Stilez (@stilez) <a href="https://twitter.com/stilez/status/1021242759401779201?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 23, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Are MCGA hats also red? Or are Canadian hats and dog whistles sourced from different suppliers than the Trump and GOP versions?
rufus
rock and roller
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
They're all still made in Jhina though.
They're all still made in Jhina though.
FadeToBlack&Gold
Microlot Marxist
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
Sorry, Brent, but "SYG is good in principle", is LOLOLOL.
Wrong!
Sorry, Brent, but "SYG is good in principle", is LOLOLOL.
Wrong!
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
"If one believes one is in mortal danger."
That is okay, IMO. That is the principle of the law. The interpretations of the law in context with the situation in question, whatever situation that may be...good Lord, that needs to change.
"If one believes one is in mortal danger."
That is okay, IMO. That is the principle of the law. The interpretations of the law in context with the situation in question, whatever situation that may be...good Lord, that needs to change.
unofan
Well-known member
Brent, everything you're saying indicates you are fine with the standard common law self defense that's available everywhere, and don't understand that SYG was intended to cover the exact situations you believe are simply being misinterpreted.
SYG is NRA porn intended to protect the Rambo wannabes so they can continue to buy their weapons and play vigilante. That's not an unintended consequence; it's the entire point.
Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
I think Brent is saying is that he is not ok with SYG covering some ahole that provokes someone else into a confrontation and then shoots them in the process claiming SYG. His objections may be even wider in scope but that's what I'm getting from his comments.
I think Brent is saying is that he is not ok with SYG covering some ahole that provokes someone else into a confrontation and then shoots them in the process claiming SYG. His objections may be even wider in scope but that's what I'm getting from his comments.
Re: 0 Days Since Last Mass Killing: Maybe It's the Person, Not the Gun...
Although that's not what I read...it's possibly true.
The problem is that is SYG. It protects the outcome you describe and it does so quite obviously. Its authors are experienced and the wording is carefully crafted enough to purposefully protect inadequately-provoked murder. Is there any question about this based on this case?
Although that's not what I read...it's possibly true.
The problem is that is SYG. It protects the outcome you describe and it does so quite obviously. Its authors are experienced and the wording is carefully crafted enough to purposefully protect inadequately-provoked murder. Is there any question about this based on this case?
- Status