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Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

  • Thread starter Thread starter Priceless
  • Start date Start date
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

Priceless said:
This is a discussion of religion. Don't be bringing facts into this.
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Yeah nice job, Lynah. You got me (except for the fact that I don't know or care whether exact NT 'events' happened exactly as stated). Frankly, I wasn't even talking about the 'events' that happened to Jesus, which is why I said 'major messages' rather than 'events'. This whole conversation has been about the Word. And yes, burd...I do consider Jesus' major messages a valid basis of belief, even if as you infer non believers don't.

This trying to catch me on a technicality is getting boring. Can you prove that the major messages of Jesus extended or exacerbated slavery? Can you prove that major messages of Jesus really had little or no impact on critical societal turning points such as slavery, child labor, proliferation of healthcare, and charity?
 
5mn_Major said:
Yeah nice job, Lynah. You got me (except for the fact that I don't know or care whether exact NT 'events' happened exactly as stated). Frankly, I wasn't even talking about the 'events' that happened to Jesus, which is why I said 'major messages' rather than 'events'. This whole conversation has been about the Word. And yes, burd...I do consider Jesus' major messages a valid basis of belief, even if as you infer non believers don't.

This trying to catch me on a technicality is getting boring. Can you prove that the major messages of Jesus extended or exacerbated slavery? Can you prove that major messages of Jesus really had little or no impact on critical societal turning points such as slavery, child labor, proliferation of healthcare, and charity?
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We're not trying to catch you in a technicality or say that you yourself are pro slavery. We're not even saying that Christianity hasn't led to positive things. We just want you to stop denying that Christianity has led to negative things as well, from the inquisition to McCarthyism (gotta root out those godless commies) and god knows what else. And yes it deserves some responsibility for slavery too, given that the vast majority of slave owners in this country were Christian.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

unofan said:
We're not trying to catch you in a technicality or say that you yourself are pro slavery. We're not even saying that Christianity hasn't led to positive things. We just want you to stop denying that Christianity has led to negative things as well, from the inquisition to McCarthyism (gotta root out those godless commies) and god knows what else. And yes it deserves some responsibility for slavery too, given that the vast majority of slave owners in this country were Christian.
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Exactly.

5mn wants us to find an example of where "love your neighbor as yourself" was the wrong thing to do in a situation, which is darn near the same thing as saying, "find an example where right was wrong." It's a logical impossibility. Since that can't exist, he'll continue to claim that Christianity (TRUE Christianity, mind you, as opposed to the real kind we actually see in the world as practiced by sinners - i.e. every single Christian ever) has never done anything wrong. It's a pointless and non-falsifiable position to take with no practical applications or relevance.

If Jesus's "major messages" are all that matters, those aren't even unique to Christianity. "Love thy neighbor" first appears in Leviticus 19:18, so it's also a Jewish message. An-Nisa 4:36 from the Koran says "Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess," so it's also a Muslim message. Buddah said, ""One should seek for others the happiness one desires for himself," so it's also a Buddhist message. There are also versions in Hinduism, Shikhism, Taoism, etc. There's nothing unique to Christianity that makes it a sine qua non for doing good deeds like abolishing slavery - slavery has been abolished many times and in many places, sometimes through the work of Christians and sometimes not. Japan banned slavery in the 1500s - what took Western culture so long?
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

burd said:
But you have no earthly idea how true either of those two translations is to the nuances or even the precise meanings of Aramaic or ancient Greek, I suspect. I might say that I enjoyed Fathers and Sons, but I have never actually read Turgenev.
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While none of us on the forum do, I think it's accurate to say that the attempt to truly understand what the source material said has been a serious and sophisticated pursuit for at least 200 years. It hasn't been restricted to believers scrambling to get their stories straight, either. Modern techniques of textual analysis and evolution of language got their birth in scriptural exegesis. The irony is right at the point where these tools became interesting and the facts they worked on began to multiply because of archaeology, the radical wing associated today with "fundamentialism" and "literalism" squeezed their eyes closed and dropped out of the discussion. The real scholarship has been proceeding without them for the last century.
 
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Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

Priceless said:
This is a discussion of religion. Don't be bringing facts into this.
Click to expand...
That's the lesson I've learned around here. And don't waste much time responding the screechers is another, no matter how much they screech.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

unofan said:
We're not trying to catch you in a technicality or say that you yourself are pro slavery. We're not even saying that Christianity hasn't led to positive things. We just want you to stop denying that Christianity has led to negative things as well, from the inquisition to McCarthyism (gotta root out those godless commies) and god knows what else. And yes it deserves some responsibility for slavery too, given that the vast majority of slave owners in this country were Christian.
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OK...so you've started to address the points below...keep going:

1. Has Jesus' word had major positive impacts on the evolution of societal norms since the age of enlightenment began? I think folks here now largely agree on this one
2. Has Jesus' word had major negative impacts on the evolution of societal norms during that same time? If I'm applying Lynah correctly...'Its a logical impossibility' to state otherwise.

...and...

3. Are causes frequently poorly understood/executed or misrepresented to further personal goals? Yes
4. How do we know when they are? They bare little resemblance to the cause that they are supposedly following.

Are slavery and McCarthyism representative of Jesus major messages...or is one of the following true - is the Jesus message poorly understood, misexecuted or misrepresented?


Meanwhile extremely consistent with the Jesus message...the history of hospitals from wiki:

By the late 19th century, the modern hospital was beginning to take shape with a proliferation of a variety of public and private hospital systems. At that time, the country's 1,500 hospitals were operated by 15,000 nuns representing over 200 religious orders.

Immeasurable benefits in terms of critical change leading to healthcare as a societal pillar, years of healthcare progress to be handed off to modern day institutions...and the impact of all this on lives/generations saved.
 
5mn_Major said:
OK...so you've started to address the points below...keep going:

1. Has Jesus' word had major positive impacts on the evolution of societal norms since the age of enlightenment began? I think folks here now largely agree on this one
2. Has Jesus' word had major negative impacts on the evolution of societal norms during that same time? If I'm applying Lynah correctly...'Its a logical impossibility' to state otherwise.

...and...

3. Are causes frequently poorly understood/executed or misrepresented to further personal goals? Yes
4. How do we know when they are? They bare little resemblance to the cause that they are supposedly following.

Are slavery and McCarthyism representative of Jesus major messages...or is one of the following true - is the Jesus message poorly understood, misexecuted or misrepresented?


Meanwhile extremely consistent with the Jesus message...the history of hospitals from wiki:

By the late 19th century, the modern hospital was beginning to take shape with a proliferation of a variety of public and private hospital systems. At that time, the country's 1,500 hospitals were operated by 15,000 nuns representing over 200 religious orders.

Immeasurable benefits in terms of critical change leading to healthcare as a societal pillar, years of healthcare progress to be handed off to modern day institutions...and the impact of all this on lives/generations saved.
Click to expand...

............
I give up. You want to delusionally believe that Christianity has never been a part of any negative activity in the history of the planet, be my guest. It'll put you on par with the anti-vaxxers of the world, but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

All right guys, we get it. Let's answer a serious questions now: Am I still the most liberal jerkhole on this stupid board?
 
Rimbaud said:
All right guys, we get it. Let's answer a serious questions now: Am I still the most liberal jerkhole on this stupid board?
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I don't have any scores for you from 2012, so I don't know about liberal, but yes, you are a jerkhole :p
 
Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

unofan said:
............
I give up. You want to delusionally believe that Christianity has never been a part of any negative activity in the history of the planet, be my guest. It'll put you on par with the anti-vaxxers of the world, but as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Click to expand...

But the only thing non believers have done here was to try to shift blame of terrible behavior from bad/misinformed people onto an entire following of Jesus that simply professes cooperation, sympathy and love. I have provided plenty of evidence to address the weakness of that position without reply.

So yeah. Give up.
 
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