World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

[dxmnkd316]

That's a really good question. Greatest Show on Turf comes to mind. Came up a yard short IIRC. Not sure what individual performances were like.

For some reason I thought St Louis lost that game. Never mind.

 

[dxmnkd316]

2018 Winter Olympics curling gold medal match.

 

[Jimjamesak]

This is a great question from a Blocked poster.

My research turns up Jerry West in the 1969 NBA Game 7.

Chuck Howley won Super Bowl V MVP, and was the first defensive player to win it, but he was playing for the Colts.

Bob May at the 2000 PGA Championship is another choice, if that counts as the championship.

Reggie Leach for the Flyers in 1976? Won the Conn Smythe despite being swept by the Canadiens.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Along those lines, a question for the people who follow soccer closer than I do, as much as we were hearing about Messi being the GOAT, when all is said and done, could he have not even been the best player on the pitch yesterday, with Mbappe being there, by the time their careers are over. Given what Mbappe did last WC and how he almost pulled off something crazier this time, and he's only 23, how difficult would it be for him to eventually eclipse Messi? Granted this is only looking at WC; how do their club accomplishments stack up?

I think Mbappe could surpass Messi but he's gonna need a lot more at the club level, a Champions League at the least but honestly multiples would probably be needed to pass Messi. To be honest, he's not even the best French player of all time, Zidane still has him beat.

On that note, I never understood the Maradona > Pele talk other than Argentinian and Italian jealousy. Maradona did jack s- at the club level, winning only a singular Argentinian title plus two Serie A titles and a UEFA Cup with Napoli. Pele had 6 Brazilian titles (including 5 straight), two Copa Libertadores (the South American Champions League), and two Intercontinental Cups (now the Club World Cup). And that's not even getting into comparing their World Cup accolades.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Here is a question that ran through my mind last night, and honestly, I couldn't come up with any names.

Has there ever been a player, in any sport, in the final (championship) game of that sport, who had a better performance than Mbappe had, and lost. I'm not even a big soccer guy, and it didn't bother me to see Messi win, but I sort of felt bad for Mbappe.

It's like throwing for six touchdowns in the Super Bowl and going down hard.

Maybe Ron Hextall forcing 7 games against Gretzky, Messier, and the rest of the 1987 Edmonton Oilers?

 

[Kepler]

Reggie Leach for the Flyers in 1976? Won the Conn Smythe despite being swept by the Canadiens.

I was trying to hold it to performance in a single game that decided the title (a championship game or a Final game 7).

If we open it to greatest performance in any loss, there is only one choice.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

On that note, I never understood the Maradona > Pele talk

People actually say that?! Do any of these people have brains?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

I was trying to hold it to performance in a single game that decided the title (a championship game or a Final game 7).

If we open it to greatest performance in any loss, there is only one choice.

It helps he was high as hell.

 

[Kepler]

It helps he was high as hell.

I believe you're thinking of someone else.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

I believe you're thinking of someone else.

Shoot. Yes, Dock Ellis I was thinking of.

 

[Jimjamesak]

People actually say that?! Do any of these people have brains?

Oh it’s an actual ongoing debate, and a pretty heated one too. FIFA basically had to award both as “Player of the Century” to quell any controversy.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Maradona's greatest achievement would have been erased by VAR. He can take a seat.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Maradona's greatest achievement would have been erased by VAR. He can take a seat.

Doubly so. Not just the hand ball but he was also offsides.

 

[JF_Gophers]

Doubly so. Not just the hand ball but he was also offsides.

And he was likely coked up. Can VAR catch that?

 

[Slap Shot]

He beat England so I'll let it go.

 

[Kepler]

And he was likely coked up. Can VAR catch that?

A calendar can.

 

[Kepler]

In terms of producing world class talent, where is the US now?

I assume the top are, in some order:

Spain
Germany
Brazil
France
Italy

Did I forget anyone or are those clearly the top 5?

Then there is the second tier, in some order:

England
Portugal
Argentina
Belgium
Netherlands

Did I forget anyone or are those the next 5?

Then there's tier 3, in some order:

Wales
Denmark
Senegal
Nigeria
Turkey
Russia
USA
Sweden
Turkey

Is that right? If so, are we towards the top of tier 3 or the bottom? What is the timeframe for us displacing somebody out of tier 2? It seems clear to me by population and wealth the US could theoretically be tier 1 at some point, something say Senegal or Wales could not be. But is that something that might happen just by natural evolution or would there need to be some paradigm shift like say football becoming impossibly expensive due to insurance and litigation and dying?

 

[Jimjamesak]

In terms of producing world class talent, where is the US now?

I assume the top are, in some order:

Spain
Germany
Brazil
France
Italy

Did I forget anyone or are those clearly the top 5?

Then there is the second tier, in some order:

England
Portugal
Argentina
Belgium
Netherlands

Did I forget anyone or are those the next 5?

Then there's tier 3, in some order:

Wales
Denmark
Senegal
Nigeria
Turkey
Russia
USA
Sweden
Turkey

Is that right? If so, are we towards the top of tier 3 or the bottom? What is the timeframe for us displacing somebody out of tier 2? It seems clear to me by population and wealth the US could theoretically be tier 1 at some point, something say Senegal or Wales could not be. But is that something that might happen just by natural evolution or would there need to be some paradigm shift like say football becoming impossibly expensive due to insurance and litigation and dying?

In terms of ranking countries I’d put it in this order:

Tier 1
Argentina
Brazil
Germany
Italy
Spain
England
France

If it wasn’t for the Euros I’d put Italy in Tier 2 and honestly Spain and Germany are getting a bit wobbly too.

Tier 2
Netherlands
Belgium
Uruguay
Croatia
Portugal

I’m tempted to put Croatia into Tier 1 but it remains to be seen if this is a golden generation or the start of new dynasty. Belgium is probably on it’s way to Tier 3 as is Portugal but we’ll see.

Tier 3
US
Mexico
Japan
South Korea
Colombia
Denmark
Poland
Switzerland
Iran
Chile
Norway

Chile and Colombia are teetering here. Iran is questionable and Norway is here because of Haaland. Mexico was probably Tier 2 ten years ago, Japan and South Korea are honestly close to Tier 2. If Costa Rica had better Gold Cup performances I’d put them here too. Sweden has gone downhill post Zlatan. Wales is nowhere near without Bale. Turkey and Russia are pretty irrelevant these days.

 

[Slap Shot]

For what it's worth updated rankings after the WC puts the US at 13. It will be interesting to see how USMNT fares at the Olympics. The 2022 squad was very young, but set pieces and offensive flair were elusive and that's not a recipe for ascending the ladder.

That said they have 4 years to hopefully figure some of that out. My fear is that if they jettison Berhalter (and/or he bolts for greener pastures/less drama) who do they turn to next?

JJ feel free to pick apart what little I offered up here. : )

 

[Jimjamesak]

For what it's worth updated rankings after the WC puts the US at 13. It will be interesting to see how USMNT fares at the Olympics. The 2022 squad was very young, but set pieces and offensive flair were elusive and that's not a recipe for ascending the ladder.

That said they have 4 years to hopefully figure some of that out. My fear is that if they jettison Berhalter (and/or he bolts for greener pastures/less drama) who do they turn to next?

JJ feel free to pick apart what little I offered up here. : )

I actually am going to pick apart myself. I forgot African teams in Tier 3 (that’s what I get for doing this at work on my phone). Add Ghana, Cameroon and maybe Senegal to Tier 3 (Africa is hard because it’s such a chaotic region though hopefully the World Cup expansion can stabilize that).

I agree with a lot of what you said. The US has really good talent in the midfield and the defensive end is getting better (young American defenders in MLS going against the bought offensive talent is worth something) but the offensive end is just a big hole, and honestly I don’t know if anyone is on the horizon. Agree on Berhalter too, if they do replace him who do you realistically replace him with?

The Olympics will be interesting, that U20 team looked pretty solid and we’ll see next summer at the U20 World Cup how they do. The potential of 2024 Copa America does throw a wrench into the works for that though.