World Soccer XXX: We Have Men Too!

[Jimjamesak]

I’m torn in this New England-Orlando match. I want Orlando to lose because having crowds is highly irresponsible and dangerous, but I want New England to lose because seeing Bruce Arena lose is a wonderful sight.

 

[Jimjamesak]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ESPNFC/status/1333164672900591617

That’s a red card.

(Great positioning by the Referee BTW)

 

[Kepler]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ESPNFC/st...64672900591617

That’s a red card.

(Great positioning by the Referee BTW)

I was surprised the announcer said it looked tenuous in live action. I thought it was blatant. He came from behind, spiked his leg, didn't have anything like a challenge to the ball. That is the Platonic Ideal red card.

 

[Kepler]

I’m torn in this New England-Orlando match. I want Orlando to lose because having crowds is highly irresponsible and dangerous, but I want New England to lose because seeing Bruce Arena lose is a wonderful sight.

I hate everybody remaining except Seattle and Minny. Go Sounders!

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Why do soccer officials allow that type of response? At one point he’s surrounded by five players, and we’ve all seen instances with even more than that.

Any other sport, that’s at least four ejections just for making contact with an official, plus however many more unsportsmanlikes/technicals for everyone else.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Why do soccer officials allow that type of response? At one point he’s surrounded by five players, and we’ve all seen instances with even more than that.

Any other sport, that’s at least four ejections just for making contact with an official, plus however many more unsportsmanlikes/technicals for everyone else.

Because ejections in soccer requires the team to play a player down.

Plus the authorities in soccer generally do not back up referees in cases like that.

(Orlando has been a problem before but MLS has done nothing in the past)

 

[Jimjamesak]

I was surprised the announcer said it looked tenuous in live action. I thought it was blatant. He came from behind, spiked his leg, didn't have anything like a challenge to the ball. That is the Platonic Ideal red card.

Yeah it was funny listening to Twellman backtrack on that really quickly after the replay.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Why do soccer officials allow that type of response? At one point he’s surrounded by five players, and we’ve all seen instances with even more than that.

Any other sport, that’s at least four ejections just for making contact with an official, plus however many more unsportsmanlikes/technicals for everyone else.

There seems to be a lot of stuff in soccer that goes against the logic seen in US sports officiating... I mean, I get that a soccer ref is all alone on the field, but in a situation like this, there needs to be a "rescue" option by an AR... As the issuing official, getting the hell out of there does two things: It diffuses the situation and if the agitator wants to continue, they become the aggressor by chasing the official down. Even moreso if you have another official step between the calling official and the offended party. At that point any escalation is clearly on the player/coach/whomever.

It's basically the same strategy in your local park district house league to high school to NCAA to Pro leagues. It just seems so foreign to me.

 

[Jimjamesak]

There seems to be a lot of stuff in soccer that goes against the logic seen in US sports officiating... I mean, I get that a soccer ref is all alone on the field, but in a situation like this, there needs to be a "rescue" option by an AR... As the issuing official, getting the hell out of there does two things: It diffuses the situation and if the agitator wants to continue, they become the aggressor by chasing the official down. Even moreso if you have another official step between the calling official and the offended party. At that point any escalation is clearly on the player/coach/whomever.

It's basically the same strategy in your local park district house league to high school to NCAA to Pro leagues. It just seems so foreign to me.

If it had gotten anymore heated one of the ARs would've been in there. There's really two problems with these situations in soccer:

1. The other officials can't really do anything beyond observe and report. ALL decisions are made by the referee and the referee alone.

2. Relevant authorities do not do anything to curb this behavior by . Beyond that, they subtly encourage this sort of behavior by refusing to punish offenders after the fact and by chastising, privately and sometimes publicly, referees for dealing with this appropriately.

The public, in general, wants games to finish 11v11 and don't want referees "too involved", so leagues want referees who will do that. Referees know this and will referee accordingly.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Because ejections in soccer requires the team to play a player down.

Plus the authorities in soccer generally do not back up referees in cases like that.

(Orlando has been a problem before but MLS has done nothing in the past)

Taking a player off the field does throw a wrench into things.

Create a separate misconduct classification that results in a suspension for next game?

I just worry about the trickle down effect to the youth and rec leagues for what is permitted at the professional and international levels. I'm not able to find statistics on a sport by sport basis to see if soccer officials receive more abuse than other sports, but anecdotally they seem to receive a higher severity of attacks, if not a higher rate in general. I'm pretty sure every story I've read regarding a fatal attack has been on a soccer official. Unfortunately too many people expect Mark Geiger to show up to their 10pm Wednesday night league game.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Taking a player off the field does throw a wrench into things.

Create a separate misconduct classification that results in a suspension for next game?

I just worry about the trickle down effect to the youth and rec leagues for what is permitted at the professional and international levels. I'm not able to find statistics on a sport by sport basis to see if soccer officials receive more abuse than other sports, but anecdotally they seem to receive a higher severity of attacks, if not a higher rate in general. I'm pretty sure every story I've read regarding a fatal attack has been on a soccer official. Unfortunately too many people expect Mark Geiger to show up to their 10pm Wednesday night league game.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Brian Barlow and his campaign come directly out of the soccer world either... I do think part of it is also that it's at most three officials... There isn't another major North American sport that has not added sets of eyes in the last 20 years.

 

[Kepler]

Because ejections in soccer requires the team to play a player down.

All the more reason to do it. Or have a black card which is a DQ that allows substitution unless the team is out of legal subs in which case smallest violin.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Taking a player off the field does throw a wrench into things.

Create a separate misconduct classification that results in a suspension for next game?

I just worry about the trickle down effect to the youth and rec leagues for what is permitted at the professional and international levels. I'm not able to find statistics on a sport by sport basis to see if soccer officials receive more abuse than other sports, but anecdotally they seem to receive a higher severity of attacks, if not a higher rate in general. I'm pretty sure every story I've read regarding a fatal attack has been on a soccer official. Unfortunately too many people expect Mark Geiger to show up to their 10pm Wednesday night league game.

Yeah, the trickle down effect is a problem. People see the pros act like that and go unpunished and get upset when a different standard is applied. Though, as one of my mentors said: "when you ask people to pay to watch, you're no longer in the sports industry, you're in the entertainment industry and a different standard applies."

 

[Jimjamesak]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Brian Barlow and his campaign come directly out of the soccer world either... I do think part of it is also that it's at most three officials... There isn't another major North American sport that has not added sets of eyes in the last 20 years.

It's actually more than three, there's a fourth official between the benches (surprisingly called the Fourth Official) plus the VAR and the AVAR in MLS.

I will be honest, I really don't like Brian Barlow. He has a near-fascist, "the authority is never wrong" view on things that I really hate. Officials can be wrong, and it should be pointed out but in a calm and professional manner. I can understand calling out the screaming jackholes but his "you not say anything ever" attitude is wrong.

 

[Jimjamesak]

All the more reason to do it. Or have a black card which is a DQ that allows substitution unless the team is out of legal subs in which case smallest violin.

Except then everyone gets upset. Look at the aftermath of the 2006 World Cup, where referees actually enforced the LOTG properly: A ton yellows, leading to multiple suspensions for high profile players, and red cards, leading to suspensions of high profile players. Plenty of matches had multiple yellows and reds, USA v Italy finished 9v10 and the Netherlands v Portugal had 4 reds and 16 yellows. What happened? Did players change their behaviors, did everyone adjust? Heck no! Everyone complained endlessly, including FIFA, and they started to force referees to handle things differently.

 

[Kepler]

By this thinking if a popular batter refuses to end his at bat after a K, and the fans go nuts supporting him, the ump should allow him a 4th strike.

 

[Kepler]

Though, as one of my mentors said: "when you ask people to pay to watch, you're no longer in the sports industry, you're in the entertainment industry and a different standard applies."

I don't understand this thinking either. The sport is only meaningful inside its rules. It's a completely arbitrary construct. The rules are its entire "being."

You can always change the rule and allow the behavior. But you can't have a rule outlawing the behavior and then allow the behavior because then you literally aren't playing the sport anymore.

I understand wiggle room in law and morality where everything is muddy and the issues underneath are real, and rules are just shorthand and provisional.

The quality of mercy is not strained.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven

But a sport is a purely artificial construct with no meaning outside its rules. Having a rule and deliberately ignoring it is either cheating, if it's to help one side, or Nothingness, if it's for any other purpose.

tl; dr: That's dumb. Don't think that way. That thought is a FAIL.

 

[Slap Shot]

Maybe if they start sending players the behavior will get corrected? Don't want to see 11v10 - stop acting like a thug.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I don't understand this thinking either. The sport is only meaningful inside its rules. It's a completely arbitrary construct. The rules are its entire "being."

You can always change the rule and allow the behavior. But you can't have a rule outlawing the behavior and then allow the behavior because then you literally aren't playing the sport anymore.

I understand wiggle room in law and morality where everything is muddy and the issues underneath are real, and rules are just shorthand and provisional.



But a sport is a purely artificial construct with no meaning outside its rules. Having a rule and deliberately ignoring it is either cheating, if it's to help one side, or Nothingness, if it's for any other purpose.

tl; dr: That's dumb. Don't think that way. That thought is a FAIL.

You are wonderfully naive if you think that attitude doesn’t permeate through other sports. Rules are broken all the time in other sports and go unpunished (holding in the NFL, traveling in the NBA for example). FFS think about playoff hockey, people hate when games are decided by marginal penalties and power plays. The professional level of sports has never, ever been a place for the high morality you dream of, nor will it ever be.

Ratings and attendance are king to TPTB, if other rules have to be bent to boost the king, then so be it they’ll say.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Maybe if they start sending players the behavior will get corrected? Don't want to see 11v10 - stop acting like a thug.

They did. People hated it:

Except then everyone gets upset. Look at the aftermath of the 2006 World Cup, where referees actually enforced the LOTG properly: A ton yellows, leading to multiple suspensions for high profile players, and red cards, leading to suspensions of high profile players. Plenty of matches had multiple yellows and reds, USA v Italy finished 9v10 and the Netherlands v Portugal had 4 reds and 16 yellows. What happened? Did players change their behaviors, did everyone adjust? Heck no! Everyone complained endlessly, including FIFA, and they started to force referees to handle things differently.