Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Get the government out of it then. Here's my option to you. Give me universal health care or let me buy my own. And that means I want a law passed that companies can no longer provide health care to their employees. This whole system of some employers doing this, and some doing that, and the government doing that mucks up the market place and drives my costs up.

So, which is it. All or none. Cause that's the two ways I want it. And Paul Ryan's hidden tax increase that screws the middle class the most (as they all do) and placates the rich just doesn't cut it for me.

You think you going out and buying individual health care, along with anyone else, is going to work well or save you money? I see no reason to think that healthcare providers would be motivated to lower costs if they sold coverage to everyone individually. I just don't see it. I can understand the visceral desire to put everyone on the same standing, but I just don't see what it actually accomplishes. I'm open to the possibility if you have credible information to back up this idea.

The issue with Ryan isn't so much that he cuts healthcare costs, but that he cuts them to the exclusion of defense spending. Both need to take a hit, and will sooner or later, hopefully sooner so the hit isn't so catastrophic.

Oh, and on the spectrum of any possibility of scenarios happening, the getting the government totally out of healthcare scenario is way down the list of things that are likely to ever happen.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You think you going out and buying individual health care, along with anyone else, is going to work well or save you money? I see no reason to think that healthcare providers would be motivated to lower costs if they sold coverage to everyone individually. I just don't see it. I can understand the visceral desire to put everyone on the same standing, but I just don't see what it actually accomplishes. I'm open to the possibility if you have credible information to back up this idea.

The issue with Ryan isn't so much that he cuts healthcare costs, but that he cuts them to the exclusion of defense spending. Both need to take a hit, and will sooner or later, hopefully sooner so the hit isn't so catastrophic.

He doesn't cut health care costs. He cuts the governments contribution to said health care costs. That's a massive difference.

Everyone being on equal footing will cut costs. Then everyone will have an incentive to live healthy. There is no incentive now.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

He doesn't cut health care costs. He cuts the governments contribution to said health care costs. That's a massive difference.

Everyone being on equal footing will cut costs. Then everyone will have an incentive to live healthy. There is no incentive now.

I don't buy that people will live healthy if they are on an equal footing for buying healthcare. People live healthy or not healthy for a variety of other reasons, but I don't see putting people on equal footing to buy healthcare even remotely causing a wave of healthier living by Americans. I don't see people saying, "I'm not going to eat out at McDonalds and Burger King every night for dinner because I'm on equal footing to buy health care". That's highly implausable.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I don't buy that people will live healthy if they are on an equal footing for buying healthcare. People live healthy or not healthy for a variety of other reasons, but I don't see putting people on equal footing to buy healthcare even remotely causing a wave of healthier living by Americans. I don't see people saying, "I'm not going to eat out at McDonalds and Burger King every night for dinner because I'm on equal footing to buy health care". That's highly implausable.

I disagree. People make good decisions about their insurance purchases all the time and if I could actually decrease my health care costs by living healthier I would in a heart beat. Car insurance translates well. Drive safely, no tickets, no accidents your costs go down. Drive the other way your costs go up.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I disagree. People make good decisions about their insurance purchases all the time and if I could actually decrease my health care costs by living healthier I would in a heart beat. Car insurance translates well. Drive safely, no tickets, no accidents your costs go down. Drive the other way your costs go up.

I think it will take a lot more than saving a few bucks on healthcare coverage to get Americans to live healthier. Our unhealthy habits are way too deep-seated.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I think it will take a lot more than saving a few bucks on healthcare coverage to get Americans to live healthier. Our unhealthy habits are way too deep-seated.

25+ years of disincentive will do that.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

25+ years of disincentive will do that.

I think it has a lot more to do with incentives like how good unhealthy things taste than 25+ years of disincentives.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I think it has a lot more to do with incentives like how good unhealthy things taste than 25+ years of disincentives.

Normal car insurance is about 80 dollars a month let's say for arguments sake. I remember high risk car insurance being over 300 dollars a month. I'm sorry, but if the Health Care insurance had that kind of gap Broccoli would start to taste awful good for a lot of Americans.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Normal car insurance is about 80 dollars a month let's say for arguments sake. I remember high risk car insurance being over 300 dollars a month. I'm sorry, but if the Health Care insurance had that kind of gap Broccoli would start to taste awful good for a lot of Americans.

Car insurance isn't a good comparison. The value to the average American of driving unsafely doesn't compare to the value to many Americans of eating unhealthily. And it's generally more expensive, not less, to eat healthily than unhealthily. No comparison really.

You're really chasing shadows here.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Car insurance isn't a good comparison. The value to the average American of driving unsafely doesn't compare to the value to many Americans of eating unhealthily. And it's generally more expensive, not less, to eat healthily than unhealthily. No comparison really.

You're really chasing shadows here.

Well, then there's no hope. Either start pulling the plug or just give me my voucher and watch me fall further into poverty. Either way, I really don't care.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I don't buy that people will live healthy if they are on an equal footing for buying healthcare. People live healthy or not healthy for a variety of other reasons, but I don't see putting people on equal footing to buy healthcare even remotely causing a wave of healthier living by Americans. I don't see people saying, "I'm not going to eat out at McDonalds and Burger King every night for dinner because I'm on equal footing to buy health care". That's highly implausable.

I agree with you completely, here. The advantages to eating healthy (living longer, feeling better, being able to bang far prettier partners) that exist right now are way more important to most people than insurance premiums.

The same people who are fat now will be fat under every health care funding system. Maximizing fats and sugar was vital for humans and human ancestors for millions of years because there was an acute shortage of them. Now we are swimming in them. It's another one of human history's gifts (aggression, territoriality, xenophobia, superstition) that keeps on giving.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

How on earth do you rein in government spending on healthcare

There's a shift in the debate here. The point is not to reduce government spending on healthcare, it's to reduce net spending on healthcare. If a single payer system means we pay less per capita for care, we should all be all for it.

Any system rations; right now we ration by wealth. That used to be viewed as morally acceptable, the way we ration, say, entertainment, but more or more it is viewed as immoral. I'm personally not all the way to thinking health care is a fundamental inalienable right, and I know people older than I are not, but people younger than I seem to be. That means insofar as policy is determined democratically, we will eventually have universal health care. The fight is not whether, but when.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Well, then there's no hope. Either start pulling the plug or just give me my voucher and watch me fall further into poverty. Either way, I really don't care.

There is always hope.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

There's a shift in the debate here. The point is not to reduce government spending on healthcare, it's to reduce net spending on healthcare. If a single payer system means we pay less per capita for care, we should all be all for it.

Any system rations; right now we ration by wealth. That used to be viewed as morally acceptable, the way we ration, say, entertainment, but more or more it is viewed as immoral. I'm personally not all the way to thinking health care is a fundamental inalienable right, and I know people older than I are not, but people younger than I seem to be. That means insofar as policy is determined democratically, we will eventually have universal health care. The fight is not whether, but when.

Young people view all sorts of things as inalienable rights, because so many of them have been provided so much so easily. That eventually will come crumbling down in the face of fiscal and other realities.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Young people view all sorts of things as inalienable rights, because so many of them have been provided so much so easily. That eventually will come crumbling down in the face of fiscal and other realities.

Young people?

No generation exists that has more of a sense of entitlement than the baby boomers.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Young people view all sorts of things as inalienable rights, because so many of them have been provided so much so easily. That eventually will come crumbling down in the face of fiscal and other realities.

You are certainly right to an extent, but the mean also seems to be sliding for all age groups as the years roll on. I do not have any hard data to back that claim, although IINM polling has support for UHC building gradually but consistently over the last few generations.

Generally speaking, ideas move from "liberal pipe dream" to "centrist status quo" to "conservative bullwark being defended against the next liberal pipe dream." Liberals move things forward but can err by becoming revolutionaries. Conservatives keep things stable but can err by becoming reactionaries. We need both to function correctly. But it also means that as we get older the world becomes increasingly more unrecognizable, and every generation ends thinking, along with Cicero, "times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."

 

[Tiggsy]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Young people?

No generation exists that has more of a sense of entitlement than the baby boomers.

Not true. They didn't start out that way and have developped that sense of entitlement over time and instilled on on their children. So the following generations have a greater sense because they were brought up that way and have believed it for much longer.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Young people?

No generation exists that has more of a sense of entitlement than the baby boomers.

I don't disagree, I was just specifically responding to a comment about young people. A sense of entitlement is rampant in all age categories, the boomers just have numbers on their side.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

You are certainly right to an extent, but the mean also seems to be sliding for all age groups as the years roll on. I do not have any hard data to back that claim, although IINM polling has support for UHC building gradually but consistently over the last few generations.

Generally speaking, ideas move from "liberal pipe dream" to "centrist status quo" to "conservative bullwark being defended against the next liberal pipe dream." Liberals move things forward but can err by becoming revolutionaries. Conservatives keep things stable but can err by becoming reactionaries. We need both to function correctly. But it also means that as we get older the world becomes increasingly more unrecognizable, and every generation ends thinking, along with Cicero, "times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."

Agree. Although a return to the draft would not help military preparedness and would be a gigantic waste of money, there is something useful about having a DI yelling at you (from about two inches away). Goes a long way toward getting that sense of "specialness" and "entitlement" out of a little brain. Basic trainees quickly learn they're no longer a dot with a circle around it. For some, the lesson is semi-permanent.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Young people?

No generation exists that has more of a sense of entitlement than the baby boomers.

How can this be? I agree. The boomers had it better than any preceding generation of Americans. Yet when we had a bump in the road in Vietnam, many of them opted to toss out the baby with the bath water. EVERYTHING is wrong with "Amerika," irredeemable. Let's start over in Cuba or North Vietnam. Let's take over the office of the President of Columbia and destroy the manuscript of a new book he was writing. Let's express our disdain for "Amerika" with bombs (killing a grad student at Wisconsin). And on and on.

Now some of those same people are getting Social Security (or soon will be) and other benefits from the government they worked so hard to overthrow, and detested so much.

Not to mention the SBA loans and other assistance they've received over the years.