Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

[srkbadger]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

I have said, "Who in their right mind would come to UW and play for Eaves?" . Perhaps slightly pejorative, but meant more in the vein of who in their right mind would come to the UW to play for Eaves when one would assume that we are competing for very high quality recruits, and they would have offers/interest from all the usual programs that maintain results expected from the highest quality institutions, i.e. Michigan, Minnesota, BC, and the like. It suffices to say that most, but certainly not all, of the players we have now were likely not on the radars of most of those institutions.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

Regardless, in my opinion if Eaves wins 16+ they retain him. Win <10 and he's gone. With some sort of sliding scale of probability in between.

Taking into account they have 3 wins already, how bad the B6 is (right now anyway), the influx of some legitimate D1 talent, and the improved systematic play through improved coaching, UW is a lock for 10 wins.

 

[markwojo]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

Maine is currently 0-6-3 and in the last 9 years have won 20+ once and been to one tournament. In the preceding 9 years they won 20+ every year, went to 9 tournaments, 6 FF's, and 3 title games, winning one. (one of the best stretches in history) I was simply saying that while I don't really see Wisconsin falling to long term Tech-like desperation no matter what happens, it's easily possible we could endure a decade or more of not really being able to get over the hump, and fan support continuing to dwindle the longer we go without winning. I'd like to see them win now.

I'm going to repeat....Maine is not a program Wisconsin should be comparing itself to. UW has so many advantages in facilities, city, tradition, school, etc that they should be striving for a much higher benchmark. Second, it is a bit disingenuous to highlight the successes of Maine hockey in the "golden era" without mentioning that they ended up under NCAA sanctions multiple times in the 90's for a variety of violations. If however emulating Maine ended up with Eaves suspend for a year without pay (as happened to Walsh), I would be okay with that....especially if the length of Eaves contract has been some of the hesitation to make the needed changes.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

It suffices to say that most, but certainly not all, of the players we have now were likely not on the radars of most of those institutions.

I don't know that that is true.

Defensively, Wittchow, (4th overall USHL draft pick) Schulze, Davison, Linhart, and Tishke, were all heavily recruited and had other offers from top schools. True that Paddy Sexton was a late bloomer, but I think he's going to make a lot of schools wish they had landed him. Not here is Matt Berkovitz who went a little off the rails last year but was a top ten "One to Watch" when he committed.

Besse and Kunin obviously had plenty of choices. Hughes was considered the top college bound 17 year old in Western Canada. UMD, UND, and several B1G schools were after him. Rockwood picked UW over BC, BU, UNH, and Harvard. Not sure whether Soleway had a lot of other offers yet when he committed. He was brought in early to replace Woods. He is drafted by Phoenix, of course. Malone and Wagner were obviously both elites when they gave verbals (and after). Will Johnson was going Ivy league until he switched last summer. Corbin McGuire was a battle at the time and considered a great get out of Taft prep. (US development camp and select player. He subsequently suffered a severe concussion and a huge setback.) Freytag was elite and heavily recruited. (17th overall USHL pick) Even Ustaski was wanted by Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, plus Union and another B1G school but I forget who... OSU maybe. Zullinik's gone but was the #1 rated prospect in the BCHL. Let's see of the skaters... that leaves Jason Ford, who was committed to BSU and then some other guys that aren't skating much, if at all, that probably fit the description of not being offered/sought after by other top schools. So at least 16 of guys that are actually skating were all highly recruited by top programs.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

I'm going to repeat....Maine is not a program Wisconsin should be comparing itself to. UW has so many advantages in facilities, city, tradition, school, etc that they should be striving for a much higher benchmark. Second, it is a bit disingenuous to highlight the successes of Maine hockey in the "golden era" without mentioning that they ended up under NCAA sanctions multiple times in the 90's for a variety of violations. If however emulating Maine ended up with Eaves suspend for a year without pay (as happened to Walsh), I would be okay with that....especially if the length of Eaves contract has been some of the hesitation to make the needed changes.

All I said was that we might risk becoming the current Maine. Not that they were the standard. What are we talking about?

It's not really all that disingenuous when you consider Shawn Walsh also died in the middle of that run. Kind of balances it out a bit. Thankfully Standbrook toed the line completely at Wisco!

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

All I said was that we might risk becoming the current Maine. Not that they were the standard. What are we talking about?

It's not really all that disingenuous when you consider Shawn Walsh also died in the middle of that run. Kind of balances it out a bit. Thankfully Standbrook toed the line completely at Wisco!

I'm not sure Grant Standbrook had a different philosophy @ Wisconsin. I read a while back that Jeff Sauer ushered Grant out because he thought he was too much of a loose canon/accountable to no-one

re: Shawn Walsh

1984-85 U. of Maine H-East 42 12 29 1 0 0 0 0.298 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1985-86 U. of Maine H-East 40 11 28 1 0 0 23 0.288 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1986-87 U. of Maine H-East 42 24 16 2 0 0 50 0.595 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1987-88 U. of Maine H-East 44 34 8 2 0 0 70 0.795 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1988-89 U. of Maine H-East 45 31 14 0 0 0 62 0.689 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1989-90 U. of Maine H-East 46 33 11 2 0 0 68 0.739 0 0 0 4260 Shawn Walsh
1990-91 U. of Maine H-East 43 32 9 2 0 0 66 0.767 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1991-92 U. of Maine H-East 37 31 4 2 0 0 0 0.865 0 0 0 Shawn Walsh
1992-93 U. of Maine H-East 45 42 1 2 0 0 0 0.956 0 0 0 5026 Shawn Walsh
1993-94 U. of Maine H-East 36 6 29 1 0 0 0 0.181 0 0 0 4282 Shawn Walsh
1994-95 U. of Maine H-East 44 32 6 6 0 0 70 0.795 0 0 0 4997 Shawn Walsh
1995-96 U. of Maine H-East 39 26 9 4 0 0 56 0.718 0 0 0 Walsh, Cronin {+}
1996-97 U. of Maine H-East 35 24 10 1 0 0 49 0.700 180 110 536 Cronin, Walsh {+}
1997-98 U. of Maine H-East 32 14 14 4 0 0 32 0.500 0 0 0 5357 Shawn Walsh
1998-99 U. of Maine H-East 41 31 6 4 0 0 66 0.805 167 94 0 4958 Shawn Walsh
1999-00 U. of Maine H-East 40 27 8 5 0 0 59 0.738 151 106 717 5727 Shawn Walsh
2000-01 U. of Maine H-East 39 20 12 7 0 0 0 0.603 0 0 0 5483 Shawn Walsh

Whitehead cruised for about 4-5 years on Walsh's coattails afterwards

but I think the argument is valid regarding Wisconsin potentially becoming like Maine and having a lost decade or worse...

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

I'm not sure Grant Standbrook had a different philosophy @ Wisconsin. I read a while back that Jeff Sauer ushered Grant out because he thought he was too much of a loose canon/accountable to no-one.

It's possible I was being slightly facetious regarding Standbrook at Wisco. Unless the NCAA is reading this. Then I wasn't.

I think we can say however that no one under Johnson or Sauer's watch was ever actually caught by the NCAA doing anything seriously against the rules. Which is good enough for me!

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

Taking into account they have 3 wins already, how bad the B6 is (right now anyway), the influx of some legitimate D1 talent, and the improved systematic play through improved coaching, UW is a lock for 10 wins.

Here's my question, Tim. Because sometimes you are clairvoyant. Can they go 3-3 to the break?

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

Here's my question, Tim. Because sometimes you are clairvoyant. Can they go 3-3 to the break?

I appreciate your confidence in my finely honed skills of analysis and eye for the game. 3-3 is possible, yes. MI scares me the most, maybe more out of the past than what they are today, as UW played so completely pathetically against them last year, the Saturday home game last year was the low point in the season to me. Again, new players, new systems new year will improve the matchup, they have sieve issues. MI St is snoozefest hockey, hopefully UW's new systems will make that match up more entertaining, last year it was paint drying. MI St does not scare me, but they are so defensive. DU will be up and down hockey similar to the sue series and UW has some horses that can run with them. I think in the end 2-4 is realistic, but 3-3 is not completely unrealistic. Dare I say 4-2 is not totally insane? I predict 3-3.

 

[burd]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

Stray Sioux-dog sniffing around your camp again.

If they have learned to play like they did Friday in Grand Forks, they will do well. They have speed, and there were some real nice no-look passes happening. They out-checked UND. UND doesn't really know what it has yet, with their soft schedule to date, so it's unclear what you can take away from last weekend, but you have reason to be hopeful, IMO.

The Eaves business aside.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

I have said, "Who in their right mind would come to UW and play for Eaves?"

Unfortunately, there are a lot of recruits saying the same things. Even worse, some NHL programs are telling their draft picks that. And even worse than that? I'm fairly certain there are some alumni saying the same thing.

 

[KaMiGo]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of recruits saying the same things. Even worse, some NHL programs are telling their draft picks that. And even worse than that? I'm fairly certain there are some alumni saying the same thing.

Playing the role of devil's advocate for a moment...do you have any proof of any of this or is it just speculation? Is there any verified source that can say "Yes, I know for a fact that this recruit left for this reason" or "Yes, I have independently verified that this NHL club or the club's affiliates are actively moving their players away from UW"

Yeah, I know "but the writing is on the wall, you'll never get a kid who says 'I left because of the coach' and you'll never have an NHL franchise risk the PR mess of saying 'we prefer any player that we draft to leave that program ASAP' but it happens and we all know it". Blah, blah, blah. Complete speculation by people on the internet who think that they are smarter than anyone else.

You choose to make the claims, I ask that you back them up, please.

 

[solovsfett]

Playing the role of devil's advocate for a moment...do you have any proof of any of this or is it just speculation? Is there any verified source that can say "Yes, I know for a fact that this recruit left for this reason" or "Yes, I have independently verified that this NHL club or the club's affiliates are actively moving their players away from UW"

Yeah, I know "but the writing is on the wall, you'll never get a kid who says 'I left because of the coach' and you'll never have an NHL franchise risk the PR mess of saying 'we prefer any player that we draft to leave that program ASAP' but it happens and we all know it". Blah, blah, blah. Complete speculation by people on the internet who think that they are smarter than anyone else.

You choose to make the claims, I ask that you back them up, please.

If EODS has heard this either first-hand or Via an ex-player or several ex-players (re: nhl teams) is do you really think he'd divulge in a public forum? Are you insane?

Also, we know Eaves wasn't at the alumni golf outing this past spring and we know from chuck's quotes numerous alumni noted the absence abd commented negatively on it and/or on eaves.

I think it's pretty easy to deduce what many alumni think of metaphor mike and his dismantling of the program

 

[WiscTJK]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

If EODS has heard this either first-hand or Via an ex-player or several ex-players (re: nhl teams) is do you really think he'd divulge in a public forum? Are you insane?

Also, we know Eaves wasn't at the alumni golf outing this past spring and we know from chuck's quotes numerous alumni noted the absence abd commented negatively on it and/or on eaves.

I think it's pretty easy to deduce what many alumni think of metaphor mike and his dismantling of the program

and it's fair to say several recent players/recruits having either left early or going directly to the OHL after the draft that the NHL seems to be indicating they don't want them long term at Wisconsin right now.

 

[solovsfett]

and it's fair to say several recent players/recruits having either left early or going directly to the OHL after the draft that the NHL seems to be indicating they don't want them long term at Wisconsin right now.

Exactly, there's no reading between the lines on some of this stuff. It's obvious that some of these kids are going elsewhere or reneging big on commitments because it's no longer in their best interests to play for eaves.

Coaches used to use 1992 ncaa championship meltdown against Sauer and it worked. With the fodder eaves has produced I would think it would be even easier to recruit against him and his baggage vs Sauer.

And that sucks but it's reality.

 

[KaMiGo]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

If EODS has heard this either first-hand or Via an ex-player or several ex-players (re: nhl teams) is do you really think he'd divulge in a public forum? Are you insane?

Also, we know Eaves wasn't at the alumni golf outing this past spring and we know from chuck's quotes numerous alumni noted the absence abd commented negatively on it and/or on eaves.

I think it's pretty easy to deduce what many alumni think of metaphor mike and his dismantling of the program

and it's fair to say several recent players/recruits having either left early or going directly to the OHL after the draft that the NHL seems to be indicating they don't want them long term at Wisconsin right now.

First and foremost, I did not ask anyone to reveal what they have as a "confidential" source. I didn't ask anyone to name names. If you have first-hand information, just identify it as such.

I think that these points are kind of backing up what I was saying. Unless you were the person receiving the information, all you are able to do is speculate. Everyone is entitled to examine a set items and provide a conclusion as they see fit.

Does anyone have first-hand knowledge of why Eaves missed this event?
Chuck quoted numerous alumni commenting negatively on the absence and/or Eaves directly; does anyone beyond Chuck know exactly what was said? Were those things said to anyone else?
A former player saying something along the lines of "I wish he was here so I could kick his butt on the course" is very different than "Him not being here is a slap in the face of the program" or "I would encourage upcoming players to look at other options".

Players leaving early or taking another route could be for any number of reasons.
We've already established that Zully leaving early certainly seemed to have family ties, backed up by the fact that his family went with him to Europe.
Of the other players that left, do you know their personal financial situation, or that of their families? You can say that it was to get out of UW, but you can also say that it was to help their family, you can say it was for any number of reasons. You can say it was their NHL club pushing them, or you can say it was anything else. All options are completely valid unless you can say with any definitive authority that it was a specific reason.

When it comes to things like this you can't state things with absolute certainty unless you personally have the evidence to back those claims up. Once you get into the world of "well EoDS said that Solo said that Chuck said that someone said..." you get into a tricky situation where the information becomes diluted at each step.

I know I have the label of being an Eaves apologist, of being an administration supporter, of being an enemy of the revolution...any of those may or may not be true; but this is an instance of looking for the known truth in a situation, nothing more.

 

[William Blake]

It's probably safe to say calling you an apologist would be an understatement.

 

[WiscTJK]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

...
I know I have the label of being an Eaves apologist, of being an administration supporter, ....

Pull head out of sand. Yep, no problems whatsoever with the program right now. Stick head back into the sand.

 

[srkbadger]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

I'm not gonna pile on KAMiGo. Honestly though, in the spirit of full disclosure, I would like to know if in any way you are related to or have any association with the Eaves family?

Again, in full disclosure, I do not.

I merely have followed the program since 1981 and seen some ups and downs. As objectively as I can evaluate things, I have honestly never seen this program in so much trouble. This far exceeds the debacle I witnessed in the 2001 NCAA regional in Grand Rapids where the inmates that ran Sauer's last teams gooned it up against Michigan St. so bad I was embarrassed to be in Cardinal and White. Yes, I emailed Pat Richter (he was accessible, unlike the current AD), and he wrote me back acknowledging and accepting some responsibility for the incident (unlike the current associate AD's form letter responses). Sauer 'retired' soon after and no one advocated for Eaves more than I. They needed what he brought at the time, structure and discipline. Little did I know what that structure would devolve in to (systematic, drone-like trap hockey). In my honest assessment it is just time to move on. These things have a shelf life, and this thing has passed its expiration date.

 

[KaMiGo]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXIV: A Season without Chuck

It's probably safe to say calling you an apologist would be an understatement.

Pull head out of sand. Yep, no problems whatsoever with the program right now. Stick head back into the sand.

Say what you will, that's fine. I've never said that there are no problems with the program. Yes, there are problems with the program.
Here, just to make sure THERE ARE PROBLEMS WITH THE PROGRAM!

The issue that I was addressing is that the speculation that comes out on this board can be a bit ridiculous.

If you want to claim that there are NHL/Canadian teams telling their players to stay away from UW, please provide more than "boy, it sure seems that way".

If you want to claim that Eaves the the reason that players have left or have chosen to go to another school, please provide more than "boy, it sure seems that way".

If you want to claim that former players are telling recruits to go elsewhere, please provide more than "I heard that someone heard someone say something".

I get that the internet is an anonymous rumor mill full of "experts", but please provide some context to back up your claims. And yes, I know that much of the background on some of these items came from Chuck/Andy, he was a great inside source for information who is no longer able to continue the conversations that he started, and that sucks for all of us.

If you want to claim that the administration is blind to what is going on and won't make any efforts to correct the problem, please provide more than "boy, it sure seems that way".

I can claim that the administration knows what is going on, is bothered by what is going on, and there are several members taking steps to improve the things that they can. I can say this because I personally met with members of the administration this week to voice my concerns and provide my feedback.