What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I'm not sure after Bob Johnson, and 6 championships you can tell the fanbase, "hey remember those titles? well hold onto those memories, it's going to be 10-15 years or more while we build up local hockey"

that's a huge problem. if in fact that's what Butters and Eaves are trying to do

In order for Wisconsin to compete like Minnesota you'd need the Brookfield/Hartland/Whitefish Bay/Waukesha type schools competing at a high level (in other words southeast Wisconsin) and I can tell you hockey and high school hockey takes a back seat to mens/boys anything not named tennis in the media...
and w/parents apparently.

I know a guy who's son plays for Brookfield and here's the crux of what he's told me: they have a tough as hell time getting enough kids to form teams from age 5 all the way up. Brookfield doesn't even have 4 full lines of forwards and they're drawing from 2 schools (Central and East). I don't know how that gets rectified. But that's the type of problem that would need to be addressed in order to really build the sport as Hudson, Eau Claire, Northland Pines, Superior, Wausau can only produce a handful of D-1 players per year (if that).

Not to hi-jack this thread, or troll your season thread.

Crazy thing about it is Bob Johnson was cut from that Mariucci cloth, while Herb Brooks went 1 direction, Bob Johnson went the other. Now another from that same cloth -Bill Butters appears to be trying to reverse that a little (just going off the number of Sconny kids on the Badger roster).
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

UW should be hitting at least 20 total wins every season, the fact that this is Eaves 10th season is irrelevant to that fact and makes your whole point come across as a whiny wannabe gopher fan. Add to that you didn't give an actual solution other than "improve recruiting" and demanded that the turn around be immediate and you are acting like a whiny little child who isn't getting what he wants as opposed to a rational adult who should recognize that all programs go in cycles. Yes, UW's cycles are currently extreme and these down periods are not enjoyable and not a good thing and no one likes losing. To point out the youth of this team isn't making an excuse but identifying the cause to allow for solutions to be found that will prevent this in the future. The recruiting issue has more to do with the distribution of the players among the classes, than any defect in the players themselves. UW should be turning over 4 forwards (3 of them seniors) and 2 Dmen (1 of them a senior) every season. As long as Eaves beings in unbalanced classes and classes with non-elite players at 18 with limited junior experience the cycle of extreme highs and lows will continue.

First, it appears you want the same thing I want, 20-win seasons and playoffs (at least home-ice 4 of every 5 years). Give yourself a chance like Michigan does annually.

the fact Eaves is in year 10 and 20-win seasons consecutively are elusive is not irrelevant. Something needs to change in order to get there, right? I know Eaves is a smart coach, however I think recruiting is not what it should be.

If that seems vague it's because heretofore I've skirted the issue w/recruiting specifically. I'll be honest: I think there are far too many grinder-type kids with not enough high-end capability on this team. Look at the list of people they lost last year that Chuck posted. It was mainly a list of 4th-line type players some of whom were playing on top lines, and there were 4-5+ of those guys and this year's team has similar numbers. so...

1. there are far to many role players on these teams, FAR too many, and that's been the case since 06-07 forward
2. you'd think if you brought in better talent (as some have touted) to replace them a few more wins would follow and since that hasn't happened I question the talent level of the current players.

I'm of the belief that talent wins out of the box. Look, Jason Zent and Andrew Schier's class never won less than 24 games in a single season for their four years on campus. that's what I expect. the inexperience or youthful talent on this team (if they're as talented as people are making them out to be) should win 20-21 games as opposed to 26-28 then, fine, 1-2 seasons of 20-wins whatever. no big deal. but that's not what is happening here.

if you blame unbalanced classes that goes on the coaches. if you cite poor recruiting (as I do now) that goes on the coaches. in the end IMO they need to target and get high-end players and not have a team of 6-8 grinders at forward. Afterall they deliberately chose to recruit less high-caliber guys several years ago and I think the results since then speak for themselves.

and if I sound like a gopher fan, fine. I think we should be holding this team (players and coaches) to the highest of standards all the time.
 
Give yourself a chance like Michigan does annually.

You realize Michigan Hockey fell off the map for a decade, right? They didn't make the tournament from 1978-1990. Every program (even the Minnesota's, the Michigan's, and the Wisconsin's) have downturns. Yes, downturns like our program saw the last 3 years and you're seeing with your program now.

I understand the frustration, first-hand, but the sense of entitlement is getting a little over the top.
 
Last edited:
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

You realize Michigan Hockey fell off the map for a decade, right? They didn't make the tournament from 1978-1990. Every program (even the Minnesota's, the Michigan's, and the Wisconsin's) have downturns. Yes, downturns like our program saw the last 3 years and you're seeing with your program now.

I understand the frustration, first-hand, but the sense of entitlement is getting a little over the top.

you could be right with the sense of entitlement, but I'd rather have lofty expectations than less stringent

Yeah, I do know Michigan's hockey history. Their run w/Berenson over the last 20 years and BC's run w/York is what I guess I'd hoped would be happening in Madison. or UW's run from 1983-1994 in terms of the consistently good-to-great teams that were produced.
 
you could be right with the sense of entitlement, but I'd rather have lofty expectations than less stringent

Yeah, I do know Michigan's hockey history. Their run w/Berenson over the last 20 years and BC's run w/York is what I guess I'd hoped would be happening in Madison. or UW's run from 1983-1994 in terms of the consistently good-to-great teams that were produced.

No problem with high expectations. I have the same expectations of my team. I'm just saying that it is impossible for any program to meet some of the expectations I've read here (and on Gopher boards over the last 3 years) over a long period of time. There will be small downturns. It's inevitable.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

First, it appears you want the same thing I want, 20-win seasons and playoffs (at least home-ice 4 of every 5 years). Give yourself a chance like Michigan does annually.

the fact Eaves is in year 10 and 20-win seasons consecutively are elusive is not irrelevant. Something needs to change in order to get there, right? I know Eaves is a smart coach, however I think recruiting is not what it should be.

If that seems vague it's because heretofore I've skirted the issue w/recruiting specifically. I'll be honest: I think there are far too many grinder-type kids with not enough high-end capability on this team. Look at the list of people they lost last year that Chuck posted. It was mainly a list of 4th-line type players some of whom were playing on top lines, and there were 4-5+ of those guys and this year's team has similar numbers. so...

1. there are far to many role players on these teams, FAR too many, and that's been the case since 06-07 forward
2. you'd think if you brought in better talent (as some have touted) to replace them a few more wins would follow and since that hasn't happened I question the talent level of the current players.

I'm of the belief that talent wins out of the box. Look, Jason Zent and Andrew Schier's class never won less than 24 games in a single season for their four years on campus. that's what I expect. the inexperience or youthful talent on this team (if they're as talented as people are making them out to be) should win 20-21 games as opposed to 26-28 then, fine, 1-2 seasons of 20-wins whatever. no big deal. but that's not what is happening here.

if you blame unbalanced classes that goes on the coaches. if you cite poor recruiting (as I do now) that goes on the coaches. in the end IMO they need to target and get high-end players and not have a team of 6-8 grinders at forward. Afterall they deliberately chose to recruit less high-caliber guys several years ago and I think the results since then speak for themselves.

and if I sound like a gopher fan, fine. I think we should be holding this team (players and coaches) to the highest of standards all the time.

This isn't 1990 anymore, talent isn't going to win out of the box given the emphasis that has been placed on defensive systems and techniques.

Please point out ONE elite player that UW did not try and recruit? You can't because UW has gone after the best players available. The problem isn't WHO has been recruited, but WHEN they have been brought in.

Talent alone does not win championships, you need the right players for the right roles. Upperclassmen win games and they win championships, this team does not have many upperclassmen and to compound the problem many of the players didn't spend much time in juniors. As a result this team is massively thin on experience, particularly at forward. Inexperienced forwards make mistakes and in Eaves system, forwards have specific roles that need to be played for the team to be successful. Teams with more upperclassmen make fewer mistakes and thus have more consistent on-ice play.

The problem of consistency in season to season performance of the team is independent of how many seasons a coach has been at a school, the fact of the matter is that this is just a down cycle and lets hope that Eaves learns from it and identifies the cause and solves it going forward.

If the team struggles next year, you may be right about the lack to talent. If they make the improvement that I suspect that they will, than you're going to have to recognize that experience, not talent was the major problem.
 
This isn't 1990 anymore, talent isn't going to win out of the box given the emphasis that has been placed on defensive systems and techniques.

Please point out ONE elite player that UW did not try and recruit? You can't because UW has gone after the best players available. The problem isn't WHO has been recruited, but WHEN they have been brought in.

Talent alone does not win championships, you need the right players for the right roles. Upperclassmen win games and they win championships, this team does not have many upperclassmen and to compound the problem many of the players didn't spend much time in juniors. As a result this team is massively thin on experience, particularly at forward. Inexperienced forwards make mistakes and in Eaves system, forwards have specific roles that need to be played for the team to be successful. Teams with more upperclassmen make fewer mistakes and thus have more consistent on-ice play.

The problem of consistency in season to season performance of the team is independent of how many seasons a coach has been at a school, the fact of the matter is that this is just a down cycle and lets hope that Eaves learns from it and identifies the cause and solves it going forward.

If the team struggles next year, you may be right about the lack to talent. If they make the improvement that I suspect that they will, than you're going to have to recognize that experience, not talent was the major problem.

Very well said.

BTW Solo - I'm in now way trying to downplay your frustration. Just trying to assure you that UW will be back on top soon. Like I said a few months ago, the situation with you guys reminds me a lot of the situation with us 3-4 years ago (asst coaching changes, early departures, etc...). It takes a few years to sort through, but you've already got a good nucleus of young guys. It won't be long :)
 
Last edited:
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I know it's not comparing apples to apples, but is it better having the hockey team cycle up-and-down (with the up cycle being national title worthy & down cycle being in the second tier of the WCHA) or being like the Badger basketball team under Bo Ryan (never lower than 4th in Big Ten and a couple of league titles, but not really a viable national title contender)?

While I really like the consistency of the basketball program, I also like knowing with hockey that they will make a run at a title when everything is in place.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

This isn't 1990 anymore, talent isn't going to win out of the box given the emphasis that has been placed on defensive systems and techniques.

Please point out ONE elite player that UW did not try and recruit? You can't because UW has gone after the best players available. The problem isn't WHO has been recruited, but WHEN they have been brought in.

Talent alone does not win championships, you need the right players for the right roles. Upperclassmen win games and they win championships, this team does not have many upperclassmen and to compound the problem many of the players didn't spend much time in juniors. As a result this team is massively thin on experience, particularly at forward. Inexperienced forwards make mistakes and in Eaves system, forwards have specific roles that need to be played for the team to be successful. Teams with more upperclassmen make fewer mistakes and thus have more consistent on-ice play.

The problem of consistency in season to season performance of the team is independent of how many seasons a coach has been at a school, the fact of the matter is that this is just a down cycle and lets hope that Eaves learns from it and identifies the cause and solves it going forward.

If the team struggles next year, you may be right about the lack to talent. If they make the improvement that I suspect that they will, than you're going to have to recognize that experience, not talent was the major problem.

yes, time will tell on the talent vs. experience. Next year the team will lose 40+ points with Schultz leaving and gains Kerdiles. Does Kerdiles score enough and/or Lee/Barnes/Mersch up their games enough to make up for that? we'll see.

on the question of what top-level talent UW hasn't gone after I'd argue the fact that for the past several years they've been basically a 1-line team w/6 or more grinders or thereabouts says they're not emphasizing goal scorers in recruiting, or...they're not landing them.

either one presents a problem, but it's the former that is the answer I think. I seem to recall Chuck or someone saying the recruiting strategy changed and went away from targeting the super high-end goal scorers with more emphasis on 4-year guys and that was back in 07 or thereabouts.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I have to laugh. People ***** when high end talent's like Stepan and Smith leave early and they cry out for more four year players. Out of the other side of their mouth they ***** that there aren't enough high end kids on the team.

I'm just as frustrated as anyone, but holy smokes people.

Wisconsin Hockey: I'll buy you a beer in Pittsburgh next spring
 
Isn't that what the gopher fans are hoping for this year?

First off, I don't think the Gophers are a Frozen Four team this year, and I certainly wasn't making asinine predictions to that effect last year. And if my memory serves me correctly, Gophers had home ice in the WCHA playoffs last year (not bottom third) and won more than ONE road game by this point. Thank God for Mankato.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

And Burd, in response to the post you so quickly deleted ....


How many of those players you mention had anything to do with UW's current assistants during their recruitment?

People can talk about players recruited under a head coach but the reality is a lot of the work is done by the assistant coaches. Those guys matter more than people often understand. Assistants won't necessarily be the main reason a kid does (or does not) select a school but you'd be kidding yourself if they don't play a healthy sized role. It certainly didn't help the Gophers cause with Hill. If they didn't have such a big advantage recruiting in MN, Hill's presence would have been more damaging than it was.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Point Mariucci was trying to make (I think) was that IF you got to a point where you had more high-end talent in-state, maybe they would be in a position to grab more high-end in-state guys (higher probability of landing in-state guys) and then supplement from out-of-state. Look at your two big guns coming in next year. Both from out of state.

Agree with him or not, I don't think it was an irrational suggestion, and he wasn't being a jerk about it in the least bit. Just unsure why you chewed him out. Dick move in my opinion.

If we got to a point that there was more high end in-state talent then we would be in a position to grab more high-end in state guys?

No kidding, thanks for pointing it out. Not sure I could have gotten that on my own. :rolleyes:

The reason I even replied to the comment, is he's (multiple times) in a Wisconsin thread lectured to Badger fans about the way Herb Brooks did things in the 70's...like it's relevant (or we care) right now. Additionally, his comments were completely off base about Butters bringing in more in-state kids (he's not).
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I understand "policing" I unfortunately do that for a living.

Let's all go to bed and come back tomorrow feeling better.

I, for one, will go to sleep with a copy of the Fourth Amendment clutched firmly to my breast.

I'll also pledge to stay away from this thread for a while. It's a good thread, and UW fans deserve better than to have us stir it up like this.
 
Last edited:
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Apologies to the Badger fans who had to read through this. I should have known better.
 
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://swf.tubechop.com/tubechop.swf?vurl=VePxbFQ-qfw&start=0&end=7.45&cid=269085"></param><embed src="http://swf.tubechop.com/tubechop.swf?vurl=VePxbFQ-qfw&start=0&end=7.45&cid=269085" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Gotta say I didn't expect it but it's nice to see mariucci finally snap.
Awesome.

mariucci! I forgot to sign my negative rep. Just to let you know, I negged repped you :D
 
Awesome.

mariucci! I forgot to sign my negative rep. Just to let you know, I negged repped you :D

How 3rd grade-ish of you.

And when "Rep" has any sort of significance what-so-ever, I'm sure he'll be devastated. In the meantime, let the issue die the death it deserves.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top