Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

the questions here seem to be: Can the Badgers catch the Gophers, looking at the players both teams lost to graduation the answer probably is:
The Gophers better make the most of this coming year because the following year the balance would seem to tip the other way.
WI lost 4 forwards & a D to graduation
MN lost 2 forwards and a D
but next year MN loses the goalie the Badgers haven't been able to beat and the player re-writing the Gopher record book in addition to some other very fine players

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

BTW, your freshman line didn’t do so well against the Maroon & Gold during the regular season, At Madison they gave up a goal in both games to Brandt’s line. Then gave up 2 to her line in the first game at Ridder but didn’t give up any the second. Having Sylvester trade places with Wellhausen probably had something to do with that second game ending in a tie.
19 gave up 6 goals, 26 gave up 5, and 21 3.

Your freshman D did do a good job however, only giving up 1 in all 5 games.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

the questions here seem to be: Can the Badgers catch the Gophers, looking at the players both teams lost to graduation the answer probably is:
The Gophers better make the most of this coming year because the following year the balance would seem to tip the other way.
WI lost 4 forwards & a D to graduation
MN lost 2 forwards and a D
but next year MN loses the goalie the Badgers haven't been able to beat and the player re-writing the Gopher record book in addition to some other very fine players

I HATE to say it, but I don't see UW surpassing the rodents next season, too much firepower deficit. Pankowski would have to have a Kazmaier type year just to be close enough to sniff their little stinky butts.

 

[rangersrule]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

The Freshman line of Pankowski, Clark, and Wellhausen didn't even skate together as a line when the 2 teams played in October in Madison. They played only one game together in Minnesota and you are correct, they did not fare well as all 3 players were minus - 3.. However, in the weeks leading up to that weekend they were playing well and with a month or so left in the season they were put back together and played very well..In the quarterfinal game vs. BU the line scored 2 of the teams 5 goals and in the Frozen 4 semi vs. Minnesota they scored the only goal and were a plus + 1 and to me looked like the best line going for UW that day. As a threesome they combined for 13 of UW's 35 shots on goal (Pankowski 4, Clark 3, Wellhausen 6). In fact, Coach Frost was matching his best line (the Brandt line) with the UW freshman line during most of the game! This line was also much better at the end of the season than they were at the beginning or even the middle of the year. Also, if you are going to compare Sylvester to Wellhausen then compare how they BOTH did when BOTH were freshman... Check the stats.. #21 had more goals, more points, more shots, and a better plus/minus.. All 3 freshman forwards always played on one of the top 3 lines for the Badgers.. Sylvester became a great player over her four years and I believe that all 3 of the freshman mentioned for UW will get better each year as well...Any team that can play 3 freshman together in crunch time and in critical games will benefit from that experience year to year! On the flip side there was at least one or two Gopher freshman forwards that rarely saw the ice in any of the UW games or any big games. That's all I was trying to say in my post!

BTW, your freshman line didn’t do so well against the Maroon & Gold during the regular season, At Madison they gave up a goal in both games to Brandt’s line. Then gave up 2 to her line in the first game at Ridder but didn’t give up any the second. Having Sylvester trade places with Wellhausen probably had something to do with that second game ending in a tie.
19 gave up 6 goals, 26 gave up 5, and 21 3.

Your freshman D did do a good job however, only giving up 1 in all 5 games.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

I keep forgetting that I have to fill between the lines with you people, when you put 3 freshman, and I don't care how talented they are , up against another teams top line, they will get burned. Whether all 3 were together or not against the Gophers in all the games is immaterial, the data shows the Brandt line scored against the freshmen. The only point I was making is that switching a very good senior player, a good defensive player proven by her team leading goal ratio, with a freshman player the following day yielded better results. Obviously not the only reason, but the data doesn't lie.
The ugliest goal given up by the Gophers, at least that I saw, was against the Suzies when freshman & sophomores were caught on the ice against a senior forward who skated the length of the ice and scored. There is a big difference defensively between freshman & juniors/seniors.
I doubt very much Frost was doing line matching to keep Brandt line away from the freshmen (especially given the success of Brandt-Menefee-Cameranesi in the previous games), more likely to keep them against the Badger senior line.
but you can believe whatever you want

 

[rangersrule]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

That simply isn't true in most cases.. Many if not most of the D-1 schools NEVER get the top recruits every year the way UM, UW, BC, & Harvard do! I would say that those 4 schools freshman players are better than most of the other schools senior players..

I keep forgetting that I have to fill between the lines with you people, when you put 3 freshman, and I don't care how talented they are , up against another teams top line, they will get burned. Whether all 3 were together or not against the Gophers in all the games is immaterial, the data shows the Brandt line scored against the freshmen. The only point I was making is that switching a very good senior player, a good defensive player proven by her team leading goal ratio, with a freshman player the following day yielded better results. Obviously not the only reason, but the data doesn't lie.
The ugliest goal given up by the Gophers, at least that I saw, was against the Suzies when freshman & sophomores were caught on the ice against a senior forward who skated the length of the ice and scored. There is a big difference defensively between freshman & juniors/seniors.
I doubt very much Frost was doing line matching to keep Brandt line away from the freshmen (especially given the success of Brandt-Menefee-Cameranesi in the previous games), more likely to keep them against the Badger senior line.
but you can believe whatever you want

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

In fact, Coach Frost was matching his best line (the Brandt line) with the UW freshman line during most of the game! !

exactly my point, if another team puts 3 freshman forwards on the ice, I'd expect the other coach to try to catch them on the ice with his most dangerous line. Defense is the biggest thing every freshman has to learn.

I suspect Johnson matched his senior line with BU's top line to neutralize them, believing his 2 other lines would do well against BU's other lines. BU's top line against the freshmen would have been ugly, even with nearly a full year behind them..

 

[rangersrule]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

pokechecker you are wrong again!! The BU top line (Lefort, Poulin, Tutino) was minus - 1 in the quarterfinal game against UW and the line that caused them to be that minus -1 was the Freshmen line of Clark, Pankowski, and Wellhausen who were a plus + 2 in the game.. In fact Coach Johnson played them quite a bit against that top BU line who happened to feature one of the best players in the world in Poulin!! She was pretty much non-existent the entire game - even against those FRESHMEN!! Your argument below makes no sense! Which is it? Does the top line match up against the other teams youngest, most inexperienced line? Or does the top line match up against the other teams top line to neutralize them and let the other 2 lines do the scoring? Because according to your logic in your last few posts the Brandt line AND the Poulin line should have completely dominated the UW freshman over those last 2 weekends and neither happened. The reason? They got better from the beginning/middle of the season to the end.. Especially defensively. So much so that Coach Johnson had no problem playing them against anybody! Minnesota has a great team and will probably be the favorite again next year, and they should be.. But UW developed ALL their freshman this year and that will pay dividends in the years to come..

exactly my point, if another team puts 3 freshman forwards on the ice, I'd expect the other coach to try to catch them on the ice with his most dangerous line. Defense is the biggest thing every freshman has to learn.

I suspect Johnson matched his senior line with BU's top line to neutralize them, believing his 2 other lines would do well against BU's other lines. BU's top line against the freshmen would have been ugly, even with nearly a full year behind them..

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

What were the stats as far as +/- for the rodent/UW semi final game?

The baby Badger line was their best line at the end of the year, better than the Sr. line. They had completely gelled in all phases of the game.

The entire BU team looked very ordinary against UW, just like a 3rd/4th place WCHA team would look. I was worried at the start of the game, but it became apparent as the game wore on that Poulin was not going to single handedly shred the UW D. I feared Brandt way more than Poulin.

 

[ARM]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

Frost said after the NCAA semi that the game turned when he put the Brandt line out against the UW frosh line. He started the game trying to put the Pannek line out vs the Badger rookies, but was forced to make the switch because UW was getting the best of that matchup.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

pokechecker you are wrong again!! The BU top line (Lefort, Poulin, Tutino) was minus - 1 in the quarterfinal game against UW and the line that caused them to be that minus -1 was the Freshmen line of Clark, Pankowski, and Wellhausen who were a plus + 2 in the game.. In fact Coach Johnson played them quite a bit against that top BU line who happened to feature one of the best players in the world in Poulin!! She was pretty much non-existent the entire game - even against those FRESHMEN!! Your argument below makes no sense! Which is it? Does the top line match up against the other teams youngest, most inexperienced line? Or does the top line match up against the other teams top line to neutralize them and let the other 2 lines do the scoring? Because according to your logic in your last few posts the Brandt line AND the Poulin line should have completely dominated the UW freshman over those last 2 weekends and neither happened. The reason? They got better from the beginning/middle of the season to the end.. Especially defensively. So much so that Coach Johnson had no problem playing them against anybody! Minnesota has a great team and will probably be the favorite again next year, and they should be.. But UW developed ALL their freshman this year and that will pay dividends in the years to come..

apparently you cannot read a score sheet, the only time it happened was on goal 4 against BU

when you look at the MN vs. WI score sheets, it is apparent that the Brandt line schooled your freshman line all year, including the OT game in Madison
the Pankowski goal in the semi came off a faceoff, a great draw, and a great shot, but it doesn't change anything I said

 

[96IllinoisDad]

apparently you cannot read a score sheet, the only time it happened was on goal 4 against BU

when you look at the MN vs. WI score sheets, it is apparent that the Brandt line schooled your freshman line all year, including the OT game in Madison
the Pankowski goal in the semi came off a faceoff, a great draw, and a great shot, but it doesn't change anything I said

... The Brandt line schooled a lot of lines.:-(

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

when you look at the MN vs. WI score sheets, it is apparent that the Brandt line schooled your freshman line all year, including the OT game in Madison

I really don't think you can hold their quality of play that early in the season with the same regard with their quality of play at the end. They grew a lot in the months between the games. Those were their 7th and 8th games of their college careers.

 

[rangersrule]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

apparently you cannot read a score sheet, the only time it happened was on goal 4 against BU

when you look at the MN vs. WI score sheets, it is apparent that the Brandt line schooled your freshman line all year, including the OT game in Madison
the Pankowski goal in the semi came off a faceoff, a great draw, and a great shot, but it doesn't change anything I said

Again, way to repeat what I stated in my post.. I can read a score sheet and if you look again at what I wrote you will see that I stated the Freshmen line SCORED on the Poulin line causing that vaunted group their Minus - 1 for the game.. In your post you said quote "BU's top line against UW's freshmen line would have been ugly.." You were right-- it sure was ugly -- FOR BU!! Furthermore, against Minnesota the freshman line were only together for one of the 4 regular season games and not at all earlier in the season in Madison. My original post was only to say that they as a threesome were very good come playoff time. Brad Frost showed that himself by putting the Brandt line out against the UW rookies after the Gophers were down a goal.. Brandts line did not score at all against them the entire game..

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

If it is any consolation, last year when I published these stats for the Gophers a few fans got upset too, IMO, it shows the relative value better than +/- or goals/pts, but like all stats is best understood in context, it is not like baseball where everyone faces the same pitcher (and that’s why I only list the players number, believing if you know them by number, you probably have the background to understand it).
FWIW, Baldwin of the Gophers was paired with Ramsey pretty much exclusively over the first 1/3 or so of the season and Pannek played with 2 seniors the last 2/3. Some fans see this as “jump starting” the freshmen, I see it as an acknowledgement that freshmen are a defensive liability and need to be nursed/mentored along.

Who is right and who is wrong? Well, we know who won the WCHA & NCAA don’t we?

looking at the score sheets the Badger season can be divided into 6 parts:
1) gave up 4 goals in 6 games
2) gave up 17 goals in 7 games
3) gave up 2 goals in 7 games
4) gave up 8 goals in 4 games
5) gave up 2 goals in 7 games
6) gave up 13 goals in 9 games ( 10 goals in 8 games prior to the NCAA semi)

#2 & # 4 started when they played the Gophers
#6 was ended by the Gophers

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

As a reminder of how difficult it is to use stats to evaluate players, consider these two stat lines, both belonging to Badger goalie ARD in 2014-15:

Games GA Saves Save Pct GAA
32 29 553 0.948 0.906
5 14 131 0.893 2.8

The first line represents non-Minn games, the second line is the Minnesota games.

A couple of takeaways: context matters, and if I'm Amanda Leveille, I'm thankful I don't have to face the Gophers.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

As a reminder of how difficult it is to use stats to evaluate players...

In baseball you can use stats to evaluate players, in football QB’s & RB’s, but in hockey they only support or refute your perception. If you think a player is good defensively (or offensively) the stats can confirm your suspicions. But to look at the stats without having seen them play, the stats are meaningless.

FWIW, Turnbull was on the ice for 1 Gopher goal, Sylvester 2, Ammerman 3. This is half what the freshmen gave up. Tell me again seniors vs. freshmen aren’t a mismatch.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

In baseball you can use stats to evaluate players, in football QB’s & RB’s, but in hockey they only support or refute your perception. If you think a player is good defensively (or offensively) the stats can confirm your suspicions. But to look at the stats without having seen them play, the stats are meaningless.

FWIW, Turnbull was on the ice for 1 Gopher goal, Sylvester 2, Ammerman 3. This is half what the freshmen gave up. Tell me again seniors vs. freshmen aren’t a mismatch.

So you can't or won't acknowledge the fact that the first series is basically meaningless due to the lack of experience of the freshmen in games 7 & 8 of their careers? Just curious.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

OK, let's ignore the first 2 games and pretend they never happened
here are the goals given up by the seniors in games 21 & 22:
Turnbull =0
Ammerman =0
Sylvester =1 (guess who was skating with Sylvester when this goal was given up, see below)
by the freshmen:
Pankowski =3
Clark = 3
Wellhausen =2

or do you want to ignore games #3 & 4 against the Gophers too?

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Wisconsin Badgers 2014-2015

If it is any consolation, last year when I published these stats for the Gophers a few fans got upset too, IMO, it shows the relative value better than +/- or goals/pts, but like all stats is best understood in context, it is not like baseball where everyone faces the same pitcher (and that’s why I only list the players number, believing if you know them by number, you probably have the background to understand it).
FWIW, Baldwin of the Gophers was paired with Ramsey pretty much exclusively over the first 1/3 or so of the season and Pannek played with 2 seniors the last 2/3. Some fans see this as “jump starting” the freshmen, I see it as an acknowledgement that freshmen are a defensive liability and need to be nursed/mentored along.

Who is right and who is wrong? Well, we know who won the WCHA & NCAA don’t we?

looking at the score sheets the Badger season can be divided into 6 parts:
1) gave up 4 goals in 6 games
2) gave up 17 goals in 7 games
3) gave up 2 goals in 7 games
4) gave up 8 goals in 4 games
5) gave up 2 goals in 7 games
6) gave up 13 goals in 9 games ( 10 goals in 8 games prior to the NCAA semi)

#2 & # 4 started when they played the Gophers
#6 was ended by the Gophers

Oh, look! It's Stupid Fun with Endpoints!