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WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Because that exposes them to contamination. If Officers "may" ask you to open them, then they "may" also not ask you to open them. It is a choice/jugement call.

Imagine this. I am a highly trained TSA inspector, with a keen eye for terrorists, standing at a checkpoint. My agency has spent 8 Billion dollars keeping the friendly skies safe. I'm approached by a woman with an 8 month old infant in her arms. Across one shoulder is a diaper bag with 7 Huggies, two teething rings, a bag of wet wipes, two blankets, a plastic bag or two (very handy for soiled diapers) and a binky....oh yes there is also two clear 2.5 ounce jars of pureed carrots in there with a spoon. The woman declares: I have baby food in here for my child (which will keep him from crying when hungry and thus protecting me from strangulation by bigblue_dl).

Do I: Thank the lady for declaring the food, examine it to see if it looks like pureed carrots, determine that it does and pass it on through the x-ray. Then say "Have a great day, I hope your baby doesn't cry during your trip."
Do I: Tell her that her child is likely a terrorist and I need to pop open the food to look at it to see if it smells and looks like carrots. Which clearly can not be done through the clear glass.
Do I: Insist that I must open the jars out of "an abundance of caution" in this "Post 9/11 world" because "I am on the front lines in the fight against TERRORISM!"
Do I: After the woman tells me no, I don't want you to open the jars, tell her: Well, you can't take them with you then and throw them into a nearby trash bin (Despite the fact that the only reason they should be confiscated is that they "could" be a bomb and throwing bombs into a trash bin makes no sense).

The point is, the TSA agents tend to be over-aggressive and immune to reasonable jugement.

In other cases, TSA agents have asked people to open their medications or contaminated them: http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...Sea-Tac-security-for-trip-home-173610991.html

Seriously, the agency doesn't screen air cargo well, invasively searches hundreds of thousands of people every day, invests in junk science (see Behavior Detection Officers) and has yet to catch a terrorist (including at least one known to have traveled by air) http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57416351/would-be-subway-suicide-bomber-najibullah-zazi-speaks/ and one who made it all the way through screening after attempting a terrorist act: http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/04/new.york.car.bomb/index.html) Why we continue to spend Billions with little to show is puzzling.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Because that exposes them to contamination.
Well... ya gotta open 'em to eat 'em. Contamination can happen from the container to the mouth, anywhere. How long does the open container sit on the table while feeding? I'm not buying your argument. Keep it on ice after opened. Simple.

Just follow the rules. Personally, if I'm standing there watching somebody beetch to an officer about not opening a container, I'm hoping like hell that officer checks it out if that person is on my flight.
Still haven't answered my questions.

I am a highly trained TSA inspector, with a keen eye for terrorists
Another question... can you please describe in detail what a terrorist looks like?
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Well... ya gotta open 'em to eat 'em. Contamination can happen from the container to the mouth, anywhere. How long does the open container sit on the table while feeding? I'm not buying your argument. Keep it on ice after opened. Simple.

Just follow the rules. Personally, if I'm standing there watching somebody beetch to an officer about not opening a container, I'm hoping like hell that officer checks it out if that person is on my flight.
Still haven't answered my questions.


Another question... can you please describe in detail what a terrorist looks like?

sure, they look like this.

http://www.nndb.com/people/780/000028696/
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

I understand why it is dumb to say "bomb" in an airport, I'm not saying that he should have said it, because that was stupid....BUT It is pretty pathetic that we can't even have what could be a civil conversation in a public place, that may contain the word "bomb" without alarms going off and people getting arrested.
You can. You can't imply there is a possibility of a bomb in luggage though...
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Too bad for Peter; but I want to know did poor Butch ever eventually get his underwear and socks back? Or is it now federal property, probably being flown to Washington for evaluation? :D
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

I understand why it is dumb to say "bomb" in an airport, I'm not saying that he should have said it, because that was stupid....BUT It is pretty pathetic that we can't even have what could be a civil conversation in a public place, that may contain the word "bomb" without alarms going off and people getting arrested.
x 100

The problem, apparently, is that there are too many people like MNS populating TSA and the gates and are completely incapable of making the distinction between asking about a bomb and implying that one exits. In their world merely saying the word bomb is the same as claiming that there is one there.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

x 100

The problem, apparently, is that there are too many people like MNS populating TSA and the gates and are completely incapable of making the distinction between asking about a bomb and implying that one exits. In their world merely saying the word bomb is the same as claiming that there is one there.

The trouble is, there were countless other ways to handle the situation, and the ref chose (possibly) the worst possible way to handle it. That's the issue here.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Apparently common sense only applies to the TSA and not individuals checking bags.

Look, I feel bad for the guy. He made a really stupid choice in phrasing and it is costing him. But he did make a choice in that phrasing. Unless you've been living on an island, you know that is just not something to say. Hell, I remember traveling to England for soccer in the mid-90's and our coaching staff hammering home that we simply COULD NOT make flippant remarks about that kind of thing. That was well before 9/11.

I'm sure this will all work itself out (eventually) and he won't be dealing with any *serious* consequences....aside from some serious egg on his face.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Apparently common sense only applies to the TSA and not individuals checking bags.

Look, I feel bad for the guy. He made a really stupid choice in phrasing and it is costing him. But he did make a choice in that phrasing. Unless you've been living on an island, you know that is just not something to say. Hell, I remember traveling to England for soccer in the mid-90's and our coaching staff hammering home that we simply COULD NOT make flippant remarks about that kind of thing. That was well before 9/11.

I'm sure this will all work itself out (eventually) and he won't be dealing with any *serious* consequences....aside from some serious egg on his face.

To me that's more than it than anything else. Yes, TSA agents at certain airports are pretty stupid. I fly out of DCA. I hate dealing with them because god forbid anything happen out of sequence (I once dropped a belt on the other side of the conveyor and had to ask if I could grab it... got attitude for it).

That being said, these rules are in place mostly as CYA but its also the same kind of nervous joke one may throw out there and as such its in the training manual. I don't know that for certain, but it seems reasonable. Fact of the matter is millions fly each year without being a massive dumbass. He's probably one of a handful that will be that stupid this year.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

x 100

The problem, apparently, is that there are too many people like MNS populating TSA and the gates and are completely incapable of making the distinction between asking about a bomb and implying that one exits. In their world merely saying the word bomb is the same as claiming that there is one there.
Please explain the 100% certain way to handle the situation, a method which fits all agents and all fliers
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but even after Freisema said his stupid comment,, he was allowed to go though security and was waiting to board the plane when they decided to pursue him and arrest him, if he was such a threat, why did they wait so long? Also, from what I've been told, being suspended is only a formality, he'll be fired as soon as they can do it.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

x 100

The problem, apparently, is that there are too many people like MNS populating TSA and the gates and are completely incapable of making the distinction between asking about a bomb and implying that one exits. In their world merely saying the word bomb is the same as claiming that there is one there.
Did you even read my response to bbdl?

For some reason you keep bringing up the TSA. The TSA did not hear the statement spoken by Mr. Friesma.

When I was at the FAA Academy we had a security briefing the first day. They told us that if we had any weapons on us or in our cars to speak now and it'd be our one get out of jail free card. They told a story of one guy who leaned over to his neighbor at one point and jokingly said "I wonder if pipe bombs count" and the entire building was evacuated for over an hour. Do you think this was an overreaction?
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

He DID! He immediately pointed out that the tags were switched, but the lazy gate agent said it didn't matter since both bags were going to the same airport. It does matter whose name is associated with which bag if there ends up being an issue with one of the bags.

When the gate agent said the bags were going to the same destination, she was most likely referring to the fact that Mr. Friesema was traveling on the same Passenger Name Record (PNR) with his companions (booked at the same time under the same itinerary) which is permissible according to FAA regulations as a travel record for one or more people traveling to the same destination. This is a common practice with airlines when family and/or friends are traveling together to expedite baggage in the event flights are cancelled, for consolidating seat reassignments, etc. The gate agent was correct according to airline baggage regulations in making the comment and handling the baggage as she did.

Secondly, according to the article what the gate agent heard Mr. Friesema say was "but my friend's bag has a bomb in it". Later during the interrogation interview, he indicated he was joking and said, "what if my friend's bag has a bomb in it?" Considering the fact that Mr. Friesema later also stated he would lose his job if detained in Alaska, is it possible he actually said what the agent thought she heard and changed his story?

Given the seriousness of the incident at Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport with the FBI and TSA involved in a 3 hour evacuation, cancelled flights, and his own personal repercussions, there is a significant psychological probability he altered his comment under duress to lessen the consequences of his actions. Moreover, given the gate agent's understanding of the serious consequences of making a decision to call TSA to report a bomb threat at the airport facility, she most likely provided a more unbiased report of what was actually said by Mr. Friesema. At that juncture, TSA had no other recourse but to assume the bomb threat was credible and evacuate that section of the airport immediately, take Mr. Friesema and his friends into custody, and proceed with an situated interrogation procedure to determine if the threat was credible. TSA and/or airport personnel have a zero tolerance policy in such cases.

Mr. Friesema made a serious error in judgment by communicating the way he did when he could have rephrased his statement in more culturally acceptable manner...not that difficult to figure out.:D

For the 10th time, in a post 9/11 world NEVER, I mean under any circumstances say the word "bomb" openly, whether jokingly or not, to an airport or airline employee, security personnel, etc. in ANY airport facility. Unfortunately, it's become a situational power word in US culture today that instills anxiety, fear and terror, and will most likely be countered with swift and decisive legal action.
 
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Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Procedure is a valuable tool for repetitive tasks, but when procedure stifles common sense failure will follow. You are well advised not to say the words "bomb," "bahn," "bombast," bomber jacket," "bombe suprise" "bum," "bun," or "Obama" within a mile of an airport lest TSA martinets grab you off the plane, arrest you, detain you, and you lose your job. Disagree? Try it and see.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

How many drunk driving accidents would happen if people were screened before they got behind the wheel? Probably significantly less. I would not be surprised if there have been more airplane bombings per thousand flight hours, than drunk driving fatalities per thousand driving hours.
No chance. There hasn't been a fatality due to a bombing on a commercial flight that departed a US airport since 1962 (link), so in the last 50 years, the rate of fatalities per flight hour has been exactly 0. If you include flights to the US from other countries, the last fatality was in 1988 (Lockerbie), so there's still 24 years in a row with a rate of 0. Rate of drunk driving fatalities per hour is therefore infinitely higher. :)
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

No chance. There hasn't been a fatality due to a bombing on a commercial flight that departed a US airport since 1962 (link), so in the last 50 years, the rate of fatalities per flight hour has been exactly 0. If you include flights to the US from other countries, the last fatality was in 1988 (Lockerbie), so there's still 24 years in a row with a rate of 0. Rate of drunk driving fatalities per hour is therefore infinitely higher. :)
But there have been fatalities due to hijacking which often include weapons or threats of weapons.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

I'm not exactly the world's biggest TSA fan, but

1) The airport absolutely did the right thing here. Every threat should be treated as credible and investigated, even if the person appears joking.
2) He didn't say it to the TSA, he said it to a gate agent from what I can gather.

did you read the story?
the counter agent put the wrong sticker on this guy's bag. the guy brought this to the attention of the agent. (I am sure it would be illegal for ME to mistag my bag on purpose... for the very reason that the ref brought up.. .in case there were a bomb in it... or any other contraband)....

so he tells the agent, and the agent does not care... he asks about the mis tagged bag and says "what if the other guy put a bomb in the bag that you have now marked as mine?".... in so many words...
I think that is a valid question.
you think he sould be arrested for asking a question?

would it be any different had he asked "what if there is something in the bag that does not belong to me?"... the agent COULD have assumed that that "something" is a bomb... that would be a reasonable assumption... that IS the thing that they are hoping to weed out, and it would be wisest to err on the side of safety, don't you think?
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

No chance. There hasn't been a fatality due to a bombing on a commercial flight that departed a US airport since 1962 (link), so in the last 50 years, the rate of fatalities per flight hour has been exactly 0. If you include flights to the US from other countries, the last fatality was in 1988 (Lockerbie), so there's still 24 years in a row with a rate of 0. Rate of drunk driving fatalities per hour is therefore infinitely higher. :)

logic and reason have no place in a discussion about the TSA
 
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Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

When the gate agent said the bags were going to the same destination, she was most likely referring to the fact that Mr. Friesema was traveling on the same Passenger Name Record (PNR) with his companions (booked at the same time under the same itinerary) which is permissible according to FAA regulations as a travel record for one or more people traveling to the same destination. This is a common practice with airlines when family and/or friends are traveling together to expedite baggage in the event flights are cancelled, for consolidating seat reassignments, etc. The gate agent was correct according to airline baggage regulations in making the comment and handling the baggage as she did.

Secondly, according to the article what the gate agent heard Mr. Friesema say was "but my friend's bag has a bomb in it". Later during the interrogation interview, he indicated he was joking and said, "what if my friend's bag has a bomb in it?" Considering the fact that Mr. Friesema later also stated he would lose his job if detained in Alaska, is it possible he actually said what the agent thought she heard and changed his story?

Given the seriousness of the incident at Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport with the FBI and TSA involved in a 3 hour evacuation, cancelled flights, and his own personal repercussions, there is a significant psychological probability he altered his comment under duress to lessen the consequences of his actions. Moreover, given the gate agent's understanding of the serious consequences of making a decision to call TSA to report a bomb threat at the airport facility, she most likely provided a more unbiased report of what was actually said by Mr. Friesema. At that juncture, TSA had no other recourse but to assume the bomb threat was credible and evacuate that section of the airport immediately, take Mr. Friesema and his friends into custody, and proceed with an situated interrogation procedure to determine if the threat was credible. TSA and/or airport personnel have a zero tolerance policy in such cases.

Mr. Friesema made a serious error in judgment by communicating the way he did when he could have rephrased his statement in more culturally acceptable manner...not that difficult to figure out.:D

For the 10th time, in a post 9/11 world NEVER, I mean under any circumstances say the word "bomb" openly, whether jokingly or not, to an airport or airline employee, security personnel, etc. in ANY airport facility. Unfortunately, it's become a situational power word in US culture today that instills anxiety, fear and terror, and will most likely be countered with swift and decisive legal action.

yeah, and it wouldda sucked to admit out loud that I was a communist when McCarthy was going nuts in this country, and it also wouldda sucked to have admitted out loud that I was a Jew in a coffeeshop in 1944 Berlin.... Unfortunately, this is not Berlin and I also would have thought that McCarthyism had died.
 
Re: WCHA REFEREE Arrested

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but even after Freisema said his stupid comment, he was allowed to go though security and was waiting to board the plane when they decided to pursue him and arrest him, if he was such a threat, why did they wait so long?

I was wondering about that too Dude. When the story initially came out in the ADN, it stated that he was later located and arrested in the Alaska Airlines Board Room. :confused:
 
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