CardsFan91
New member
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
I would love to see Utica join the SUNYAC!
I would love to see Utica join the SUNYAC!
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Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
- Thread starter PrezdeJohnson09
- Start date
pierre maguire
New member
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
After reading that article, it's mind bottling to me that schools don't want teams to join their conference because they are to good? That was the sentiment I got from Coach Dawes comments and if so,that logic is *** backwards. Would these coaches and schools be more willing to accept Ecac W teams if they were bad programs? Or is it just purely a travel and dollar and cents thing? Did the WCHA deny BSU and UNO entry in to their conference because they were to strong? Of course not! Did Atlantic Hockey accept Bobby Mo and Niagra because they thought they wouldn't challenge for league championships? Doubt it. Outside of Plattsburg, Oswego, St. Norbert, Middlebury and Norwich, many if not most couldn't even name 5 schools that play. Manhattanville, Elmira and to lesser extent, Neumann, Hobart and Utica, are for the most part recognized programs people have heard of. Why a conference wouldn't want to raise it's and it's member schools profiles by accepting top level teams is beyond me.
After reading that article, it's mind bottling to me that schools don't want teams to join their conference because they are to good? That was the sentiment I got from Coach Dawes comments and if so,that logic is *** backwards. Would these coaches and schools be more willing to accept Ecac W teams if they were bad programs? Or is it just purely a travel and dollar and cents thing? Did the WCHA deny BSU and UNO entry in to their conference because they were to strong? Of course not! Did Atlantic Hockey accept Bobby Mo and Niagra because they thought they wouldn't challenge for league championships? Doubt it. Outside of Plattsburg, Oswego, St. Norbert, Middlebury and Norwich, many if not most couldn't even name 5 schools that play. Manhattanville, Elmira and to lesser extent, Neumann, Hobart and Utica, are for the most part recognized programs people have heard of. Why a conference wouldn't want to raise it's and it's member schools profiles by accepting top level teams is beyond me.
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
Harder for their school to have their cake and eat it too.
If I'm Morrisville/Castleton/NEC/Babson/Curry/Southern Maine you name any mid-tier program etc...why would I want more competition for the auto-bid in my conference when it's already tough enough to try and knock off the Oswego, Plattsburgh, Middlebury, Norwich, St, Norbert of the world.
I can fully see why no one wants them. Everyone wants to win or make it to the NCAA Tournament. Why make it harder on yourself if you don't have to or aren't forced to?
Harder for their school to have their cake and eat it too.
If I'm Morrisville/Castleton/NEC/Babson/Curry/Southern Maine you name any mid-tier program etc...why would I want more competition for the auto-bid in my conference when it's already tough enough to try and knock off the Oswego, Plattsburgh, Middlebury, Norwich, St, Norbert of the world.
I can fully see why no one wants them. Everyone wants to win or make it to the NCAA Tournament. Why make it harder on yourself if you don't have to or aren't forced to?
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
And this would be my suggestion if Manhattanville left for the ECAC-E:
West: (travel partner)
Buff State/Fredonia
Brockport/Geneseo
Elmira/Neuman
Hobart/(Cortland)
East:
Oswego/Canton
Plattsburgh/Potsdam
Utica/Morrisville
Cortland/(Hobart)
This is tough to figure out. Moving west to east, they make nice little pairs that are visible geographically until you get to the last 4 teams. Plattsburgh, Potsdam, and Canton are all really close, but Neumann is a major geographic outlier to all the rest of the league. So it makes sense, to limit travel, to put the furthest from everyone as a travel partner with the one who is closest to them (Elmira). But then Plattsburgh is the Geographic outlier, so it makes more sense to put Potsdam with them and put Canton with Oswego. Then pair Cortland with Hobart.
The interesting part of this is that Cortland and Hobart, despite being travel partners, can be in opposite divisions to make each division 7 teams. Here's how scheduling could work:
(Please wait while I attempt to work out a major flaw in my initial suggestion.)
So while the number of League game days totals to 20, this is actually a 19-game conference schedule, meaning that a team can schedule 6 Out-of-Conference games.
And this would be my suggestion if Manhattanville left for the ECAC-E:
West: (travel partner)
Buff State/Fredonia
Brockport/Geneseo
Elmira/Neuman
Hobart/(Cortland)
East:
Oswego/Canton
Plattsburgh/Potsdam
Utica/Morrisville
Cortland/(Hobart)
This is tough to figure out. Moving west to east, they make nice little pairs that are visible geographically until you get to the last 4 teams. Plattsburgh, Potsdam, and Canton are all really close, but Neumann is a major geographic outlier to all the rest of the league. So it makes sense, to limit travel, to put the furthest from everyone as a travel partner with the one who is closest to them (Elmira). But then Plattsburgh is the Geographic outlier, so it makes more sense to put Potsdam with them and put Canton with Oswego. Then pair Cortland with Hobart.
The interesting part of this is that Cortland and Hobart, despite being travel partners, can be in opposite divisions to make each division 7 teams. Here's how scheduling could work:
(Please wait while I attempt to work out a major flaw in my initial suggestion.)
So while the number of League game days totals to 20, this is actually a 19-game conference schedule, meaning that a team can schedule 6 Out-of-Conference games.
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MountieBoyOz
Eater of Worlds
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
Finally someone is on board with me about Oswego and Canton being travel partners. When Canton joins, they should just put them and Oz together and Morrisville goes with Cortland.
Finally someone is on board with me about Oswego and Canton being travel partners. When Canton joins, they should just put them and Oz together and Morrisville goes with Cortland.
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
With the interlock gone after this year I believe the ECAC E only agreed to accept the D2 schools, St. A's and St. Mike's, while they try to get there programs into D3. Based on history the chance of this happening are slim to none so the ECAC E could be looking for more teams in a couple of years. I cann't believe they wouldn't accept Manhattanville and maybe they would take another ECAC W team like Utica if they don't join the SUNYAC. The ECAC E is very competitive at this time and I don't think most teams would have a problem with the increased competition.
But from reading the article it looks like its every team is trying to get the best deal for themselves. But I still think the ECAC E is a partial answer to the problem.
With the interlock gone after this year I believe the ECAC E only agreed to accept the D2 schools, St. A's and St. Mike's, while they try to get there programs into D3. Based on history the chance of this happening are slim to none so the ECAC E could be looking for more teams in a couple of years. I cann't believe they wouldn't accept Manhattanville and maybe they would take another ECAC W team like Utica if they don't join the SUNYAC. The ECAC E is very competitive at this time and I don't think most teams would have a problem with the increased competition.
But from reading the article it looks like its every team is trying to get the best deal for themselves. But I still think the ECAC E is a partial answer to the problem.
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
For Manhattanville yes.
But probably not for Elmira/Hobart/Utica/Neumann.
For Manhattanville yes.
But probably not for Elmira/Hobart/Utica/Neumann.
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
With the Utica application I wonder how Manhattanville will act if they are offered a chance to join the ECAC East in the future. After the Utica move I would guess that loyalty to the ECAC West would be slipping for some teams.
With the Utica application I wonder how Manhattanville will act if they are offered a chance to join the ECAC East in the future. After the Utica move I would guess that loyalty to the ECAC West would be slipping for some teams.
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
I don't think there is much loyalty at all anymore. It's every school for themselves. Do what you have to do to survive. Utica and Manhattanville are in a lot better situations than Hobart, Elmira, and Neumann.
Call me crazy..but, would any of these schools explore the D-I option? It may be the only way to survive.
I don't think there is much loyalty at all anymore. It's every school for themselves. Do what you have to do to survive. Utica and Manhattanville are in a lot better situations than Hobart, Elmira, and Neumann.
Call me crazy..but, would any of these schools explore the D-I option? It may be the only way to survive.
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elbojpb
Well-known member
ECAC/W = Screwed
ECAC/W = Screwed
Heenan's Comment:
Bottom line ... the pu$$y coaches and ADs from the weaker teams would rather see a 'lowest common denominator' factor than attempt to improve. Actually getting better takes more skill, time and money ... something those programs are unwilling / unable to invest.
I completely get it ... just don't blow smoke up my arse with platitudes about the "good of D3 hockey"
ECAC/W = Screwed
Heenan's Comment:
If strong means overwhelming, then I don't see any arrangement that incorporates all 5, and most likely the reason that Utica made the SUNYAC application.
Bottom line ... the pu$$y coaches and ADs from the weaker teams would rather see a 'lowest common denominator' factor than attempt to improve. Actually getting better takes more skill, time and money ... something those programs are unwilling / unable to invest.
I completely get it ... just don't blow smoke up my arse with platitudes about the "good of D3 hockey"
Re: ECAC/W = Screwed
Re: ECAC/W = Screwed
It all started with LVC going belly-up (of course we can try blaming RIT, too). The "obvious" ECAC solution is to put the ECAC W and NE together, but the NE won't play that game. They could have a 12 team league with two divisions. Put WNEC in the West division. But the ECAC NE is a "cost containment" league.
Re: ECAC/W = Screwed
It all started with LVC going belly-up (of course we can try blaming RIT, too). The "obvious" ECAC solution is to put the ECAC W and NE together, but the NE won't play that game. They could have a 12 team league with two divisions. Put WNEC in the West division. But the ECAC NE is a "cost containment" league.
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LakerEagleLover
New member
I would be shocked if Manhattanville didn't hope/plan for the day they trade the Tappan Zee bridge, Rte 17 and NYS Thruway for I-95....
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
I get the feeling that those comments might have been directed toward the ECAC-NE, where the lower half doesn't want to spend the money, and the upper crust is happy being able to compete for the autobid. Given the NE record against the W, the current NE leaders would be reduced to the middle of the pack.
I get the feeling that those comments might have been directed toward the ECAC-NE, where the lower half doesn't want to spend the money, and the upper crust is happy being able to compete for the autobid. Given the NE record against the W, the current NE leaders would be reduced to the middle of the pack.
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
NCAA says no more 1 sport playups. Move the entire program to DI, or stay where you are. Plus, on the current DI scene there isn't any room for them. Maybe go Independent with UAH? Why trade being an independent DIII with a realistic shot at having a home schedule and playing for the championship, for being in DI and never playing at home then watching the playoffs on ESPN?
Leagues stepping up to help out the 5 ECAC-W teams is a lot like Renewable Energy. Everybody agrees thats for the betterment of the environment, just don't put those da*** windmills in my neighborhood.
NCAA says no more 1 sport playups. Move the entire program to DI, or stay where you are. Plus, on the current DI scene there isn't any room for them. Maybe go Independent with UAH? Why trade being an independent DIII with a realistic shot at having a home schedule and playing for the championship, for being in DI and never playing at home then watching the playoffs on ESPN?
Leagues stepping up to help out the 5 ECAC-W teams is a lot like Renewable Energy. Everybody agrees thats for the betterment of the environment, just don't put those da*** windmills in my neighborhood.
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
It was interesting getting a little insight in the ECAC big POW WOW this summer about eastern hockey. However, it is a long way to Elmira, Hobart, and Neumann for a lot of New England schools and there fans. I realize the SUNYAC and ECAC D3 women do a lot of travel but the tradition of fans traveling to lot of away games in New England would be effected if the teams were included. If you have a crystal ball you can sort of see how it might shake out in a couple of years with teams like Manhattanville, Wentworth, Curry, and maybe a team like Western New England moving to a new league.
Something else to think about if Utica is added to the SUNYAC wouldn't the league have fewer out of league availability with the 25 game limit? The ECAC West teams all have excellent programs so lets hope they find a league to fit into.
It was interesting getting a little insight in the ECAC big POW WOW this summer about eastern hockey. However, it is a long way to Elmira, Hobart, and Neumann for a lot of New England schools and there fans. I realize the SUNYAC and ECAC D3 women do a lot of travel but the tradition of fans traveling to lot of away games in New England would be effected if the teams were included. If you have a crystal ball you can sort of see how it might shake out in a couple of years with teams like Manhattanville, Wentworth, Curry, and maybe a team like Western New England moving to a new league.
Something else to think about if Utica is added to the SUNYAC wouldn't the league have fewer out of league availability with the 25 game limit? The ECAC West teams all have excellent programs so lets hope they find a league to fit into.
elbojpb
Well-known member
LakerEagleLover
New member
. +1
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column
This – the 25 game limit – means a split conference is required for a merger to occur, otherwise, it would FORCE the SUNYAC to limit its membership to 13 teams and then be limited to one out-of-conference game – hence, splitting the conference is the only realistic possibility (the current 9, means there is room for only 4 more, the could even take all 5, let alone justify not taking SUNY Canton, when they apply). This is the strongest argument for seeking and justifying an exception to the umbrella issue. Yes, they could have a play-in for the AQ, but as I mentioned before, forcing a conference who has no motivation, other than the desire to advance the sport as whole, to adhere to the current umbrella restrictions would be the definition of poor sportsmanship.
This – the 25 game limit – means a split conference is required for a merger to occur, otherwise, it would FORCE the SUNYAC to limit its membership to 13 teams and then be limited to one out-of-conference game – hence, splitting the conference is the only realistic possibility (the current 9, means there is room for only 4 more, the could even take all 5, let alone justify not taking SUNY Canton, when they apply). This is the strongest argument for seeking and justifying an exception to the umbrella issue. Yes, they could have a play-in for the AQ, but as I mentioned before, forcing a conference who has no motivation, other than the desire to advance the sport as whole, to adhere to the current umbrella restrictions would be the definition of poor sportsmanship.