Utica College: The gang's all here.

[Russell Jaslow]

I honestly don't know what the argument to not let the Division II's play down is. I also don't understand what the argument is to not let each school designate ONE sport to make that jump to Division I, in both men and women. Could be hockey, could be baseball, could be lacrosse - with the amount of Division II and Division III schools that currently feature full Division I programs (Hobart, Johns Hopkins, etc.), why not let each school pick the one sport that is regionally appealing to fans, student-athletes in the area, etc. and play Division I?

I explained it all. Money. The D1 schools are spending a ton of money supporting entire D1 sports programs. They don't want a school to "cheap out" and spend way less money supporting a D3 sports program, but play one sport up to cherry pick that championship.

I get your argument about the D3 schools throwing all available financial resources at that one sport... but if they are within the scholarship rules, etc., what's the problem?

How about building massive Taj Mahals for their hockey team, fantastic weight rooms, special dorms for the D1 athletes, etc., etc. Just look at Utica. Everyone is saying they will have a recruiting advantage because they play in a great facility. That's exactly why D1 schools don't want D3 schools to play one sport up.

In terms of the D2 ice hockey programs, they weren't offering scholarships and in most cases, the D3 facilities/teams had all the advantages over them. The argument is likely what Russell was saying - doing it for men's ice hockey opens the door for other sports (like men's volleyball, who is currently in "National Collegiate" limbo). Would Utica keep its hockey teams in Division III and promote its other teams to Division II?

You can't play down anymore either. If they went D2, their hockey team cannot compete for the D3 national championship, just like any of the NE-10 schools cannot. And for Utica, that would defeat the whole purpose.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Still hasn't learned a thing.

Well, to be honest, the local Rochester newspaper does shit for coverage of the RIT hockey teams. So, Fishy Boy isn't too far off.

 

[Fishman'81]

I explained it all. Money. The D1 schools are spending a ton of money supporting entire D1 sports programs. They don't want a school to "cheap out" and spend way less money supporting a D3 sports program, but play one sport up to cherry pick that championship.



How about building massive Taj Mahals for their hockey team, fantastic weight rooms, special dorms for the D1 athletes, etc., etc. Just look at Utica. Everyone is saying they will have a recruiting advantage because they play in a great facility. That's exactly why D1 schools don't want D3 schools to play one sport up.



You can't play down anymore either. If they went D2, their hockey team cannot compete for the D3 national championship, just like any of the NE-10 schools cannot. And for Utica, that would defeat the whole purpose.

The first half of your first point is kinda valid. (Blind hog/acorn thing I guess), but the vast majority of even *successful* D-1 hockey teams lose money every year. And a grandfathered "D-1 in hockey only school", eg Clarkson, Union, St. Lawrence, Union, RPI, et al..? None of them turn a net profit. Not even close. You can bet that the grandfathered ECAC teams are bleeding money playing at the D-1 level lately.

To your 2nd point, not so much. Esche didn't get the money to renovate The Aud via UC's gate, clearly. He managed -somehow- to get the dough via attracting an AHL team there. (I still don't how he accomplished that feat in a 4,000 seat arena, but it HAS worked). I have to give him extreme credit for having both things happening successfully at once, as well as building a huge sports complex right next door.

Your third point, I agree with. No one has said anything on here to persuade me that it's a good idea for Utica to go D-2, or to even join the AHA. I guess that would have have to been another brain-child of the folks who decided to re-name the school.

All style, no substance.

 

[Sir Nubs]

Well, to be honest, the local Rochester newspaper does **** for coverage of the RIT hockey teams. So, Fishy Boy isn't too far off.

I was referencing yet another unfounded perennial national contender reference.

 

[Mr.Right]

Well if what u are saying is true and this is happening because NCAA D1 "members" are voting down these proposals because they are scared of new competition then that is pathetic. So all Sports are lumped together by the NCAA governing body and its members then vote? Or does each Sport have its own separate body on these specific issues? I know each Division has a body but really it should be separated by Sport not Division. That would be the first problem that needs fixing. If it is by Sport then these D1 Hockey programs have splainin' to do. That would be like massive D1 schools insulating themselves and making it almost impossible on the smaller schools How is that good for the other dues paying "members"? Every D1 Sport is different and needs its own set of standards tailored to the needs of their own Sport(i.e Hockey growing its Sport at the collegiate level in both D1 and D3). Otherwise this is going to be a painstakingly long process to grow the Game at the collegiate level. Hockey needs a "lobby" to really push this issue with the NCAA and its own members that vote and a "lobby" for university's and College's to really push them to look at investing in Hockey at their respective school's. Look at the noise the Michigan Women's team is fighting their own school over. That noise will eventually have an impact.

Question: What are the differences b/w Canadian University system and NCAA D3 talent wise. Is the Canadian system considered the 2nd option for kids out of Junior? Would D3 schools be considered greater, equal or less than? Just curious

 

[Russell Jaslow]

The first half of your first point is kinda valid. (Blind hog/acorn thing I guess), but the vast majority of even *successful* D-1 hockey teams lose money every year. And a grandfathered "D-1 in hockey only school", eg Clarkson, Union, St. Lawrence, Union, RPI, et al..? None of them turn a net profit. Not even close. You can bet that the grandfathered ECAC teams are bleeding money playing at the D-1 level lately.

Where did I say anything about making money (other than the basketball tournament reference)? What I'm talking about is cherry picking a championship and the willingness for schools to spend money to have a winning program. And the full time D1 schools don't want a D3 school being able to funnel all their money to support one sport at the D1 level because they don't have to spend money on a full slate of D1 teams.

To your 2nd point, not so much. Esche didn't get the money to renovate The Aud via UC's gate, clearly. He managed -somehow- to get the dough via attracting an AHL team there. (I still don't how he accomplished that feat in a 4,000 seat arena, but it HAS worked). I have to give him extreme credit for having both things happening successfully at once, as well as building a huge sports complex right next door.

In the particular Utica situation, yes. But a D3 school could decide to get a massive donation and build the greatest college hockey rink around. Heck, look at North Dakota (I know they are not D3, but they certainly spend all their attention on D1 hockey). And that is what the D1 schools don't want to see from a D3 school.

Your third point, I agree with. No one has said anything on here to persuade me that it's a good idea for Utica to go D-2, or to even join the AHA. I guess that would have have to been another brain-child of the folks who decided to re-name the school.

All style, no substance.

College vs. University is a hell of a lot more than style, especially by New York State's definition. But your ignorance knows no bounds. A university includes schools within it and offers a larger variety of programs and degrees than a college does.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Well if what u are saying is true and this is happening because NCAA D1 "members" are voting down these proposals because they are scared of new competition then that is pathetic.

It's the members' choice. Doesn't matter what you or I think or like.

So all Sports are lumped together by the NCAA governing body and its members then vote?

Essentially yes. And usually by division.

Or does each Sport have its own separate body on these specific issues?

Basically no, except for very specific sport related issues like rulebooks.

I know each Division has a body but really it should be separated by Sport not Division. That would be the first problem that needs fixing

Although many niche sports have said this, it won't be, trust me.

Plus, be careful of the unintended consequences if this should happen. What if football and basketball split off from the NCAA, which has been talked about often. It would kill all other championships, especially on the D3 level. After all, who do you think pays for the entire budget of the NCAA? The D1 basketball tournament.

That would be like massive D1 schools insulating themselves and making it almost impossible on the smaller schools

Bingo. That's exactly what it is, and that's exactly what the big schools want. Heck, the Power 5 essentially don't want anything to do with any other conference/school. I don't want to accuse you of being naive, but you need to pay attention to what's been happening in college sports the past 10 years, especially in football and basketball to understand where this is all coming from. For instance, the Big 10 has very strict scheduling guidelines for non-conference games for all its members and all its sports. They are very unfavorable to non-D1 schools.

Question: What are the differences b/w Canadian University system and NCAA D3 talent wise. Is the Canadian system considered the 2nd option for kids out of Junior? Would D3 schools be considered greater, equal or less than? Just curious

The Canadian University sports system is basically useless. It's more the equivalent of club/intramural sports. No country in the world has a collegiate sports system like America does. Though, I don't know if that's a good thing or not. LOL

 

[Quasi Hatrack]

Question: What are the differences b/w Canadian University system and NCAA D3 talent wise. Is the Canadian system considered the 2nd option for kids out of Junior? Would D3 schools be considered greater, equal or less than? Just curious

The biggest difference is that players from the three major junior leagues can play for Canadian schools even with two or three years experience in the big 3. There aren't a lot of those players and most Canadian college players come from the same leagues that D3 teams recruit from. Back when it was a thing for D1 teams to open the season with an exhibition against a Canadian school, most games ended up a blow out for the US side.

 

[joecct]

Speaking of playups, the B1G lacrosse conference owes its AQ to a D3 playup - Johns Hopkins.

 

[Mr.Right]

It's the members' choice. Doesn't matter what you or I think or like.



Essentially yes. And usually by division.



Basically no, except for very specific sport related issues like rulebooks.



Although many niche sports have said this, it won't be, trust me.

Plus, be careful of the unintended consequences if this should happen. What if football and basketball split off from the NCAA, which has been talked about often. It would kill all other championships, especially on the D3 level. After all, who do you think pays for the entire budget of the NCAA? The D1 basketball tournament.



Bingo. That's exactly what it is, and that's exactly what the big schools want. Heck, the Power 5 essentially don't want anything to do with any other conference/school. I don't want to accuse you of being naive, but you need to pay attention to what's been happening in college sports the past 10 years, especially in football and basketball to understand where this is all coming from. For instance, the Big 10 has very strict scheduling guidelines for non-conference games for all its members and all its sports. They are very unfavorable to non-D1 schools.



The Canadian University sports system is basically useless. It's more the equivalent of club/intramural sports. No country in the world has a collegiate sports system like America does. Though, I don't know if that's a good thing or not. LOL

Not naive about the situation but it seems the Power 5 and their 2 Sports are just going to break away anyway within 10 years. Instead of waiting around for that to happen maybe the rest of the membership in all Divisions and the rest of the Sports better start thinking about their future and figuring out solutions to this inevitable problem. You gotta play hardball and get noisy. The NCAA needs to use what little leverage they have today b4 they have nothing tomorrow.

 

[AMC]

Teams aren't allowed to "play down" as a D-III rule, not a D-I rule. It was aimed at Dayton football, more than anything, to the point that it is colloquially known as the "Dayton Rule." It was passed in 1983, after Dayton beat Ithaca 63-0 in the 1980 D-III title game. The thinking was that the D-I schools playing down had an inherent advantage over their D-III competition, so D-III membership passed a blanket rule. All higher division schools were ineligible for D-III playoffs after its passage, and were largely gone from D-III by 1992 in everything except the northeast D-II hockey schools. The NE-10 schools hung around as playoff-ineligible for a while until the D-III schools started wondering why they were playing them (not because they were necessarily too good, just what the point was).

Does it help grow hockey? No. But that isn't the point of the rule.

 

[Fishman'81]

Where did I say anything about making money (other than the basketball tournament reference)? What I'm talking about is cherry picking a championship and the willingness for schools to spend money to have a winning program. And the full time D1 schools don't want a D3 school being able to funnel all their money to support one sport at the D1 level because they don't have to spend money on a full slate of D1 teams.



In the particular Utica situation, yes. But a D3 school could decide to get a massive donation and build the greatest college hockey rink around. Heck, look at North Dakota (I know they are not D3, but they certainly spend all their attention on D1 hockey). And that is what the D1 schools don't want to see from a D3 school.



College vs. University is a hell of a lot more than style, especially by New York State's definition. But your ignorance knows no bounds. A university includes schools within it and offers a larger variety of programs and degrees than a college does.

That's all about what the school wants to call itself, in any real sense.

Please.

 

[Fishman'81]

Where did I say anything about making money (other than the basketball tournament reference)? What I'm talking about is cherry picking a championship and the willingness for schools to spend money to have a winning program. And the full time D1 schools don't want a D3 school being able to funnel all their money to support one sport at the D1 level because they don't have to spend money on a full slate of D1 teams.



In the particular Utica situation, yes. But a D3 school could decide to get a massive donation and build the greatest college hockey rink around. Heck, look at North Dakota (I know they are not D3, but they certainly spend all their attention on D1 hockey). And that is what the D1 schools don't want to see from a D3 school.



College vs. University is a hell of a lot more than style, especially by New York State's definition. But your ignorance knows no bounds. A university includes schools within it and offers a larger variety of programs and degrees than a college does.

That's all about what the school wants to call itself, in any real sense. It means almost nothing aside from that.

Please.

 

[geneseo]

That's all about what the school wants to call itself, in any real sense. It means almost nothing aside from that.

Please.

Ignorance is bliss, eh?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

That's all about what the school wants to call itself, in any real sense. It means almost nothing aside from that.

Please.

Umm, no.

Again your ignorance (and stupidity) knows no bounds.

 

[Ed Trefzger]

Again, how did the "move-up" benefit RIT?

RIT is a complete afterthought in D-1.

Utica will be, too.

Let's see: new arena, three trips to the NCAA tournament, much more national brand recognition. But I'm sure RIT would rather be playing Chatham or Wilkes or Lebanon Valley than Notre Dame, Princeton, Arizona State, Army, Air Force, Holy Cross, etc.

 

[joecct]

Let's see: new arena, three trips to the NCAA tournament, much more national brand recognition. But I'm sure RIT would rather be playing Chatham or Wilkes or Lebanon Valley than Notre Dame, Princeton, Arizona State, Army, Air Force, Holy Cross, etc.

Ed

The only worry is will the cost of fully funding the D1 programs (18 scholarships @ $67K ? 2), kill the remaining D3 programs success?

In other words, will you become a Clarkson in the Liberty League?

 

[Ed Trefzger]

Ed

The only worry is will the cost of fully funding the D1 programs (18 scholarships @ $67K ? 2), kill the remaining D3 programs success?

In other words, will you become a Clarkson in the Liberty League?

That's a great question. I think there are some factors that suggest otherwise. First, RIT's enrollment is six times Clarkson's, so there's a bigger pool of money to draw from. Second, RIT's new AD is working on increasing staff. Third, the athletic facilities are undergoing a huge makeover: https://www.rit.edu/news/athletic-facility-improvements-home-stretch.

 

[OZFEST]

That's a great question. I think there are some factors that suggest otherwise. First, RIT's enrollment is six times Clarkson's, so there's a bigger pool of money to draw from. Second, RIT's new AD is working on increasing staff. Third, the athletic facilities are undergoing a huge makeover: https://www.rit.edu/news/athletic-facility-improvements-home-stretch.

Another question. I know how it works in football, but how does the revenue sharing work when a program like RIT visits Michigan? TIA

 

[Ed Trefzger]

Another question. I know how it works in football, but how does the revenue sharing work when a program like RIT visits Michigan? TIA

It all depends. If a team goes on the road without a return visit, then the host often compensates for travel. RIT schedules opponents who are also agreeing to come to RIT or the homecoming game downtown and there’s no money involved.

Atlantic Hockey’s commissioner wants a more even split in home and away non-conference games but some programs prefer the cash.

This season Princeton comes to RIT and RIT goes to Arizona State as the second half of scheduled series. Next season Notre Dame comes to RIT’s homecoming, which usually sells out Rochester’s AHL Blue Cross Arena with nearly 11,000 fans. That game got canceled in 2020. RIT split at Notre Dame this past season.