Utica College: The gang's all here.

[geneseo]

Besides NE-10 and about 12 New York D2 schools the rest are in the South and West...Partial Scholarships, older students, Utica will have to lower admissions standards to compete on a national level, etc etc...Yes even I love a Lemoyne or a Post but D2 used to have a strong New England/ NY presence until most in New England went D3 to get away from all the stuff I mentioned above and to save money. Maybe it's my take because my roots are New England.

Why will Utica have to lower their admissions standards to compete nationally? The admissions rate is 86% and the SAT between 1015 and 1210. I would have thought admissions standards is one place where they wouldn't have a problem.

 

[Mr.Right]

Why will Utica have to lower their admissions standards to compete nationally? The admissions rate is 86% and the SAT between 1015 and 1210. I would have thought admissions standards is one place where they wouldn't have a problem.

They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.

 

[geneseo]

They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.

I get your point but I think your are overstating it. I don't see a school like Utica having significant difficulties on this front, not with that admissions rate and those SAT scores. This is Utica we're talking about, not Ithaca.

 

[Fishman'81]

Fish and his crystal ball.

I know I am repeating myself but there is no reason to suggest this. You need to realize it is an entire new group of players. For some reason you think that it is this years Utica team jumping up to the D1 level.

So UU has purged the entire roster, and replaced it with D-1 caliber talent?

Please.

 

[Fishman'81]

There are a lot of moving pieces behind the scenes. I have talked to several individuals around the league and in other conferences who have different ideas they favor about realignment including regional splits, separation along academic lines, two divisions within a 14-team AHA, the addition of a "NEMHA" like the NEWHA, and even realignment of the eastern leagues because there are enough teams for one or two more automatic qualifiers. There are those in college hockey also suggesting some western realignment is imminent, especially with the addition of Augustana and Lindenwood.

This part is my opinion: Utica has a tradition and fan base in place similar to RIT's move 17 years ago that would help make it succeed at D-I. It could be a competitive team within a short period of time.

Again, how did the "move-up" benefit RIT?

RIT is a complete afterthought in D-1.

Utica will be, too.

 

[HawksHockey]

They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.

You’re underestimating how much the partial scholarship model affects enrollment.

If I am a softball player, for example, I can play at one of the MANY small, liberal arts Division III institutions throughout New England….

But look! A Division II school is offering me $5K in athletic aid, you’d be surprised at how many would choose the D2 (in the NE10 outside of hockey, for example) with the substandard facilities, etc.

Student-athletes, especially parents, love saying they’re on athletic aid scholarships. Just saying!

 

[HawksHockey]

Because St.A's made all these plans, got everything ready with tons of work behind the scenes before they were accepted into the Newmac for the rest of their sports. Newmac does not have Hockey so no idea where they were going for that.. They assumed it was a done deal. They learned the hard way to never assume anything. Newmac said St.A's did not fit the academic mission of its schools.. Babson, MIT, Springfield, WPI, Coast Guard, Clark and Wheaton plus Smith on the women's side. IMO D2 is like the NAIA now basically a dead end. Utica moving D2 for the rest of sports is a real bad idea. I think the D1 Hockey though is exciting because of the fan base Utica has. If Utica loses the fan base because they start losing heavy in D1 and the rest of the Sports are in a dead end D2 then the whole decision will have been a disaster.

Saint Anselm would have stayed in the ECAC East/NEHC in both men’s and women’s ice hockey as they were already there.

As I said in an earlier post, Utica will be fine in D2 and might actually save money due to the partial scholarship model. Their facilities, outside of hockey, appear to be decent.

Much easier to fill rosters and improve sub-standard sports teams when you can start giving kids something like $1,000 in athletic aid to woo them from the D3 ranks.

 

[HawksHockey]

They don't have to but if they want to compete nationally forget it...they will be competing against some schools with ZERO standards in admissions. Some D2 schools maybe 20-30 out of 300 are very good schools academically but most are not great. My hunch is faculty will be up in arms with this move. There is no point to it and the money and resources that Utica will need to spend to compete will be much more than D3. President could be in trouble if this move goes wrong as well.

Take a look at some of the rosters (home towns) at the Division II schools in the NE10. My guess is that Utica’s recruiting areas will not change (look at Le Moyne’s rosters outside of basketball, for example).

I also think you’re overestimating what it takes to compete in D2… LOTS of Division III schools would beat many teams across the board in D2.

If I had to guess, this move for Utica is all about hockey (can play up to D1 now from D2) AND better enrollment for the non-hockey teams (partial scholarships to entice those borderline D2/D3 students).

 

[JSicedog]

So UU has purged the entire roster, and replaced it with D-1 caliber talent?

Please.

Where are you getting this "purge the entire roster" stuff from? There are only 8 or 9 players who would still be eligible to play by the time they go D1. I think you see at most 3-4 still stick around with the team through the transition. The other 5 or 6 will be gone or will stick around but know they will never see the ice.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Where are you getting this "purge the entire roster" stuff from? There are only 8 or 9 players who would still be eligible to play by the time they go D1. I think you see at most 3-4 still stick around with the team through the transition. The other 5 or 6 will be gone or will stick around but know they will never see the ice.

Because, Fishy Boy, as usual, has no idea what he is talking about.

There is going to be a transition. Heck, the first year alone they will probably still play some D3 teams like RIT did in their first year. By the time they are a full fledged D1 hockey team (i.e., they are eligible for the NCAA playoffs), their roster will be a full fledged D1 talent roster. At that point, we will truly see how well they are able to recruit that level of talent.

Now, having said that, I am with Fishy Boy that I don't think overall it's a good move for Utica. Like he said, if they end up in AHA, they may be very competitive within the league, but they won't get the necessary talent to make a splash on the national level; the one RIT Frozen Four run was a rare exception. AHA simply does not get that talent, and every AHA school (and soon RIT) has had a full scholarship contingent to work with for years. And then you have the added expense of an all D2 sports program, which happens to include football, and having to join a D2 league, which I assume will mean additional travel expenses.

However, marketing wise, it can still work. Despite Fishy Boy's extreme ignorance, RIT has benefitted from their D1 hockey program. I know someone who used to work in the RIT's marketing department, and she said a lot more more students around the country now know about RIT since their hockey team went D1. And when they made their Frozen Four run, recruiting regular students had never been easier. She said, we no longer had to explain what RIT was when we did national recruiting fairs.

 

[UCBadger]

I get your point but I think your are overstating it. I don't see a school like Utica having significant difficulties on this front, not with that admissions rate and those SAT scores. This is Utica we're talking about, not Ithaca.

Hello, we are right here. LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Fishman'81]

Because, Fishy Boy, as usual, has no idea what he is talking about.

There is going to be a transition. Heck, the first year alone they will probably still play some D3 teams like RIT did in their first year. By the time they are a full fledged D1 hockey team (i.e., they are eligible for the NCAA playoffs), their roster will be a full fledged D1 talent roster. At that point, we will truly see how well they are able to recruit that level of talent.

Russell, attempt to avoid behaving like a dick, if only for a minute...

Of course I don't study the Byzantine endeavor that is D-3 hockey. I'd prefer to do my taxes again.

If you think that Utica or (ANY AHA team) is going to recruit "full-fledged D-1 talent", you haven't seen the AHA, ever. (Maybe time for YOU to check your facts, ya think?)

 

[Fishman'81]

I'm curious why you're saying Division II is dead? I don't think it's dead at all.

But what is the point of D-2's existence? So member teams have the option of playing either up or down? (Sincere question.)

Not trying to be contrary for the sake of it, but I don't grasp the calculus here. I buy the 4-pack of season tickets every year for around $250. Let's say that the price doubles, and Utica is getting its ass handed to it most every night... My guess is that attendance will fall off the cliff, Jumbotrons or not.

Fans everywhere ignore losing programs. The local media barely nods at Utica hockey even as it contends annually for a D-3 title.

This is looking like the hoops move to D-1 Lite: not going to work.

 

[Fishman'81]

Because St.A's made all these plans, got everything ready with tons of work behind the scenes before they were accepted into the Newmac for the rest of their sports. Newmac does not have Hockey so no idea where they were going for that.. They assumed it was a done deal. They learned the hard way to never assume anything. Newmac said St.A's did not fit the academic mission of its schools.. Babson, MIT, Springfield, WPI, Coast Guard, Clark and Wheaton plus Smith on the women's side. IMO D2 is like the NAIA now basically a dead end. Utica moving D2 for the rest of sports is a real bad idea. I think the D1 Hockey though is exciting because of the fan base Utica has. If Utica loses the fan base because they start losing heavy in D1 and the rest of the Sports are in a dead end D2 then the whole decision will have been a disaster.

What you said.

 

[HawksHockey]

But what is the point of D-2's existence? So member teams have the option of playing either up or down? (Sincere question.)

Not trying to be contrary for the sake of it, but I don't grasp the calculus here. I buy the 4-pack of season tickets every year for around $250. Let's say that the price doubles, and Utica is getting its *** handed to it most every night... My guess is that attendance will fall off the cliff, Jumbotrons or not.

Fans everywhere ignore losing programs. The local media barely nods at Utica hockey even as it contends annually for a D-3 title.

This is looking like the hoops move to D-1 Lite: not going to work.

At 95% of these Division II and Division III schools, it's NOT about fans or "revenue" from ticket sales - it's about enrollment and keeping the doors open. That's why you're seeing this influx of schools at small D3's adding sports like men's and women's ice hockey.

Think about it - unless these student-athletes are academically gifted and receive scholarships for their work in the classroom, these are sometimes kids paying $40K-50K just for the privilege of playing hockey.

That's why the partial scholarship model works for some of these Division II programs - they're not full scholarships (for non-hockey sports), meaning they're enticing student-athletes with a little athletics scholarship money and instead paying more than 75% of the bill out of pocket for attendance.

I don't know enough about Utica to say whether it's the right move or not.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

But what is the point of D-2's existence? So member teams have the option of playing either up or down? (Sincere question.)

Not trying to be contrary for the sake of it, but I don't grasp the calculus here. I buy the 4-pack of season tickets every year for around $250. Let's say that the price doubles, and Utica is getting its *** handed to it most every night... My guess is that attendance will fall off the cliff, Jumbotrons or not.

Fans everywhere ignore losing programs. The local media barely nods at Utica hockey even as it contends annually for a D-3 title.

This is looking like the hoops move to D-1 Lite: not going to work.

Preze is talking about Division II as a whole, not hockey.

 

[Mr.Right]

See for me I have more questions than answers.

1. Why is the NCAA working against itself? I do not understand forcing schools to move up ALL Sports to D2 just because you want to move ONE Sport to D1. You have a Sport here in Hockey that is trying to grow the Game at the College level in the US because so many more kids are playing the Sport. You should be trying to get to over 100 D1 Program's and 125 D3 Program's so if a school is willing to move up like Utica and pay the necessary costs to support the program so it can be successful at the D1 Level the NCAA should be making it as easy as possible for the school moving up( If Navy adds u better believe they will do it first class) not forcing it to jam all Sports into a Dead End D2. There is a reason all these schools are leaving D2 for either D3 or D1.

2. Somehow it needs to be easier for schools to add Men's and Women's Hockey at the D3 level. I look at all these Prep Schools, Jr Preps and even High Schools that have facilities and programs and obviously some money but it is frustrating that it does not translate to more College's having the Sport. If u have Hockey as a club sport than it is possible to upgrade if the schools wanted to invest in it.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

See for me I have more questions than answers.

1. Why is the NCAA working against itself? I do not understand forcing schools to move up ALL Sports to D2 just because you want to move ONE Sport to D1. You have a Sport here in Hockey that is trying to grow the Game at the College level in the US because so many more kids are playing the Sport. You should be trying to get to over 100 D1 Program's and 125 D3 Program's so if a school is willing to move up like Utica and pay the necessary costs to support the program so it can be successful at the D1 Level the NCAA should be making it as easy as possible for the school moving up( If Navy adds u better believe they will do it first class) not forcing it to jam all Sports into a Dead End D2. There is a reason all these schools are leaving D2 for either D3 or D1.

2. Somehow it needs to be easier for schools to add Men's and Women's Hockey at the D3 level. I look at all these Prep Schools, Jr Preps and even High Schools that have facilities and programs and obviously some money but it is frustrating that it does not translate to more College's having the Sport. If u have Hockey as a club sport than it is possible to upgrade if the schools wanted to invest in it.

One word -- money.

The restriction on play ups all started when some schools (think St. John's in NYC) only had a D1 team in basketball. When the huge TV contracts started coming in for March Madness, the full fledged D1 schools did not want to share the money with what they perceived as cherry pickers.

So, the initial restrictions started for some sports. Then, even though many other sports are not big money sports, the big D1 powers in those sports also did not want to see certain schools cherry pick their championships. Plus, the big D1 powers felt that schools like Clarkson can put all their monetary effort behind hockey (or whatever that one sport a particular school is playing up) because Clarkson would not have to spend a lot on the rest of their sports being they were all D3. Thus, there was a perception of unfairness. Therefore, all sports restricted themselves to only schools that were going to make a commitment to the appropriate division in all sports, grandfathering those who were already doing so. And in some ways, you can see their point. You want to compete in D1 or D2? Then make the full commitment.

Remember, the NCAA's job is not to care about one sport. It's to care about their entire membership. And it is that membership which votes on the policies enacted by the NCAA. The NCAA is just a governing body. Nothing more. It's the members who decide what the rules are.

 

[HawksHockey]

One word -- money.

The restriction on play ups all started when some schools (think St. John's in NYC) only had a D1 team in basketball. When the huge TV contracts started coming in for March Madness, the full fledged D1 schools did not want to share the money with what they perceived as cherry pickers.

So, the initial restrictions started for some sports. Then, even though many other sports are not big money sports, the big D1 powers in those sports also did not want to see certain schools cherry pick their championships. Plus, the big D1 powers felt that schools like Clarkson can put all their monetary effort behind hockey (or whatever that one sport a particular school is playing up) because Clarkson would not have to spend a lot on the rest of their sports being they were all D3. Thus, there was a perception of unfairness. Therefore, all sports restricted themselves to only schools that were going to make a commitment to the appropriate division in all sports, grandfathering those who were already doing so. And in some ways, you can see their point. You want to compete in D1 or D2? Then make the full commitment.

Remember, the NCAA's job is not to care about one sport. It's to care about their entire membership. And it is that membership which votes on the policies enacted by the NCAA. The NCAA is just a governing body. Nothing more. It's the members who decide what the rules are.

The stubbornness of the NCAA to allow the Division II non-scholarship hockey schools to simply play down to Division III is one of the many problems that the NCAA has caused itself here. That's why there are now these NCAA Division II schools playing in the NEWHA and why you're also seeing a lot of this uncertainty in Division I.

I honestly don't know what the argument to not let the Division II's play down is. I also don't understand what the argument is to not let each school designate ONE sport to make that jump to Division I, in both men and women. Could be hockey, could be baseball, could be lacrosse - with the amount of Division II and Division III schools that currently feature full Division I programs (Hobart, Johns Hopkins, etc.), why not let each school pick the one sport that is regionally appealing to fans, student-athletes in the area, etc. and play Division I?

I get your argument about the D3 schools throwing all available financial resources at that one sport... but if they are within the scholarship rules, etc., what's the problem?

In terms of the D2 ice hockey programs, they weren't offering scholarships and in most cases, the D3 facilities/teams had all the advantages over them. The argument is likely what Russell was saying - doing it for men's ice hockey opens the door for other sports (like men's volleyball, who is currently in "National Collegiate" limbo). Would Utica keep its hockey teams in Division III and promote its other teams to Division II?

 

[Sir Nubs]

Fans everywhere ignore losing programs. The local media barely nods at Utica hockey even as it contends annually for a D-3 title.

Still hasn't learned a thing.