Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

In reference to Oswego, the difference is there was active management and transparency across athletics, admissions and administration - it was a drop in overall international student enrollment, despite the school's aggressive recruitment of students from across the globe - not just our neighbors to the North - that caused the administration to eliminate the program as it was written and move all aid to need and performance based awards. Oz managed the program according to NCAA guidelines, but could not sustain International enrollment - the President pulled the plug...the aftermath has been well documented on USCHO...

Utica, according to its own admission, did not have the proper controls in place to properly manage the program and stay in compliance....

"Compliance" appears to be whatever a school can do to avoid sanctions, while stacking their team. (IIRC, 23 of 24 guys playing for OSU were from Canada last year, and all from the OJHL to boot. )

I'm not saying that Oswego was cheating, but it's pretty silly for Champs and others to get their panties in a bunch over the much smaller number of Canadians who played for Utica, and many fewer of them being over-aged. (Last year's D-3 champs had a large # of 22+ YO players on the roster, if my information is correct.)

Let's all get real here: Some D-3 schools want to be relevant, and others don't care too much about hockey... But let's not pretend that any of the schools that want to be relevant don't find a way to stack their rosters with grown Canadian men who are looking for their last shot at playing hockey for free.

A few actual 18-YOs who received a little bit of a leg-up is not a felony by any means, in any meaningful terms... There's plenty of evidence that UC just hasn't figured-out how to play the game yet.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

"Compliance" appears to be whatever a school can do to avoid sanctions, while stacking their team. (IIRC, 23 of 24 guys playing for OSU were from Canada last year, and all from the OJHL to boot. )

I'm not saying that Oswego was cheating, but it's pretty silly for Champs and others to get their panties in a bunch over the much smaller number of Canadians who played for Utica, and many fewer of them being over-aged. (Last year's D-3 champs had a large # of 22+ YO players on the roster, if my information is correct.)

Let's all get real here: Some D-3 schools want to be relevant, and others don't care too much about hockey... But let's not pretend that any of the schools that want to be relevant don't find a way to stack their rosters with grown Canadian men who are looking for their last shot at playing hockey for free.

A few actual 18-YOs who received a little bit of a leg-up is not a felony by any means, in any meaningful terms... There's plenty of evidence that UC just hasn't figured-out how to play the game yet.

The case of Plattsburgh, and Oswego until recently, having more internationals than Utica is easily explained by a much greater international enrollment. It's not "what percent of the aid goes to athletes?" But rather "Is the percentage of aid going to athletes similar to the percentage of the student body playing a sport?"

Plattsburgh gives its aid to all international students, not just Canadians, and the admissions department does a gantastic job advertising to potential students in Canada, Latin America, Europe, Southeat Asia, Africa... Basically everywhere. If you have a large number of international students, you can give the financial aid to an entire hockey team and still keep the percentage low.

Oswego was similar, but cancelled the program as soon as they noticed overall international enrollment beng reduced to levels at which the aid would not be sustainable under NCAA rules, and as a result the incoming freshman class has more Americans than any other under Gosek. Where Oswego got this right and Utica got this wrong, by their own admission, is monitoring and oversight. Had Utica been paying attention, as they were advised to do by the NCAA, and been proactive in their approach to the grant program, they could have avoided even the slap on the wrist that the NCAA has given them.

In short: yes, everybody tries to take advantage of the tools provided by the Financial Aid administration, but where they need to work for compliance is in monitoring the program and doing something when it becomes clear that the program is no longer compliant or sustainable.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

The case of Plattsburgh, and Oswego until recently, having more internationals than Utica is easily explained by a much greater international enrollment. It's not "what percent of the aid goes to athletes?" But rather "Is the percentage of aid going to athletes similar to the percentage of the student body playing a sport?"

Plattsburgh gives its aid to all international students, not just Canadians, and the admissions department does a gantastic job advertising to potential students in Canada, Latin America, Europe, Southeat Asia, Africa... Basically everywhere. If you have a large number of international students, you can give the financial aid to an entire hockey team and still keep the percentage low.

Oswego was similar, but cancelled the program as soon as they noticed overall international enrollment beng reduced to levels at which the aid would not be sustainable under NCAA rules, and as a result the incoming freshman class has more Americans than any other under Gosek. Where Oswego got this right and Utica got this wrong, by their own admission, is monitoring and oversight. Had Utica been paying attention, as they were advised to do by the NCAA, and been proactive in their approach to the grant program, they could have avoided even the slap on the wrist that the NCAA has given them.

In short: yes, everybody tries to take advantage of the tools provided by the Financial Aid administration, but where they need to work for compliance is in monitoring the program and doing something when it becomes clear that the program is no longer compliant or sustainable.

+1

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

"81%" of a small handful of kids playing various sports does not equate to twice that number actually being awarded to a men's hockey team.

1. It doesn't matter if Utica had 4 total awards given out, and 3 went to Athletes, its still illegal in the NCAA's eyes. The 81% was shown because its not the 49/51 that it needs to be. Utica was NOT as bad as other teams in their misuse of the FA Grant system.

You need to work on comparing apples to apples... (Hint: Platty had > 200% more internationals on its team last year than did Utica, right?)

It DOESN'T matter how many are or are not on a team. Potsdam Women's Lacrosse had ONE Canadian player on their team, and because she received the grant that wasn't in compliance to the 49/51% NCAA rule, the WHOLE team received sanctions. You're already confused.

How that happened isn't the point... The point is that UC gained no advantage there, and you are talking about a silly red herring, as though Utica cheated to get half the Canadians on their roster as Platty already had.

No one said Utica cheated. The NCAA LET'S teams USE the FA Grants if they do it right. Meaning a maximum of 49% to Athletes. How hard is that to understand. Utica did not follow the rule, and is now punished.

The POINT is, Utica is now the 7th or 8th DIII Hockey team to be caught. It's been very well documented and has been discussed at seminars about this EXACT thing. ANYONE who gets caught now has no one but their selves to blame. What I tried to explain to you, which maybe if you pulled your head out of your own cavity search instead of instantly bashing someone for your clueless knowledge on things, is that teams who hand out small numbers of grants (like Utica) who don't have a large international student body to begin with receiving the grants (like Utica) need to make sure that they reach that 51% to NON ATHLETES more carefully. Yes Utica only had 16 grants in 2 years. All Utica needed was to admit another 11 Canadian NON ATHLETES and they would have been fine as their ratio would have met the legal limits. Utica is NOT on the same tier as Neumann when it comes to this whole thing. It's not the #'s or %'s that makes people shake their heads at Utica, its the fact that SO many teams have been caught, you would think teams like Utica would be more careful, but not so. Understand now? No one is bashing Utica for trying to do the right thing or a good thing. They just didn't watch it close enough to make sure it was being done right.

Think of it this way. Your 1 co-worker gets in trouble for mopping the floors with a dirty mop, he gets fired. The next guy comes in, gets told the last guy got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop and mops the floor with a dirty mop, get fired. The next guy comes in, gets told the last two guys got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop and mops the floor with a dirty mop, get fired. The next guy comes in, gets told that the last three guys got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop and mops the floor with a dirty mop, get fired. Then you come in and they tell you the last four guys got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop, yet you still mop the floor with a dirty mop.

Again, its not the point of how many or yadda yadda yadda, the point is teams/schools ARE STILL doing this after seeing it happen several times over the past few seasons yet NOW the NCAA just tells teams to stop and we will just watch you to make sure you don't do it again. There were teams who were banned from post season play because of this, yet now teams get told just don't do it again.

Did Utica "cheat", seeing how there have only been 8 Canadian players on their team no. What you're missing is a bottom tier DIII team (not Utica here now) can literally go out and make this amazing FA Grant package that will load their team up with Canadians (and depending on the amount of the grant probably decent ones) go out and win a ton of games for a couple years. The NCAA comes in now and says "You didn't follow the rules. Stop the grants and just don't do it again." By then the team that was a mid to bottom tier DIII team has gained notoriety and can work their way out of the bottom tier of DIII teams and become at least respectable.

Now having said that, there ARE teams who have began to offer FA Grants and follow the 49/51 rule and are doing well, LEGALLY.

I understand your frustrations, but because a team stacks up on Canadian players LEGALLY does not make it wrong. Your top teams have all had a very high number of Canadian/Foreign players on their teams. This isn't about how many are on teams, its about the $$$ they give not only the athletes but the non-athletes as well. Just because teams like Plattsburgh can have a high number of international students to maintain the 49/51 ratio doesn't mean they are cheating. Utica could start their own international program, get 50 or 60 international students into their school and then hand out grants to athletes on a 49/51% ratio. Sorry if you think I came down on Utica to hard lol it's not about the % anymore. Utica could have given out 115 of the 118 grants to athletes and would have been told the same thing now days.

However, if you don't think handing out those 13 awards HELPED Utica, you're on crack. The stats show it. Utica was a .500 team prior to the Canadian players showing up. They did pick up over 25% of Utica's points over the three seasons. Here's a question for you.

Had Utica NOT handed out those grants would:
A. The Canadian players come to Utica (maybe Adams because it was a school degree choice)?
B. Would they have become a Championship contender or even this year favorite with out the Canadian players?

My answer, No, and No. For two simple reasons. Utica was a school who had 3 Canadians total in 10 years. Obviously something drew them to Utica besides the Aud. And B, no. They would have still been a good DIII team, but not a contender/favorite. Several UC fans even commented to me that it was about time UC got on track with the FA process. The process is a great thing for the school and team, as long as its done right and with in the rules. Utica did not, how hard is it to grasp?

I try to play nice with you, but your arguments are generally too specious to consider, and you've made yet another very dumb one.
Go rant on a Platty post, please, or maybe work on your cavity-search technique, but kindly spare us your statistical gymnastics here.

The only thing dumb here is you. Everyone else gets it. Everyone else understands it, except you. So who's the dumb one?

All you do is twist numbers when it suits you, then hide behind them when it's convenient. Even your allies on this thread must be embarrassed by your weak efforts.

There is no twisting numbers. The ratio is simple...give more to NON ATHLETES then you do ATHLETES. As I said, Utica's 81% is NOT as big of a deal as Neumann's 115 of 118, for sure. But its the fact Utica is playing dumb like they didn't know. EVERYONE KNOWS NOW!!!

 

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

The case of Plattsburgh, and Oswego until recently, having more internationals than Utica is easily explained by a much greater international enrollment. It's not "what percent of the aid goes to athletes?" But rather "Is the percentage of aid going to athletes similar to the percentage of the student body playing a sport?"

Plattsburgh gives its aid to all international students, not just Canadians, and the admissions department does a gantastic job advertising to potential students in Canada, Latin America, Europe, Southeat Asia, Africa... Basically everywhere. If you have a large number of international students, you can give the financial aid to an entire hockey team and still keep the percentage low.

Oswego was similar, but cancelled the program as soon as they noticed overall international enrollment beng reduced to levels at which the aid would not be sustainable under NCAA rules, and as a result the incoming freshman class has more Americans than any other under Gosek. Where Oswego got this right and Utica got this wrong, by their own admission, is monitoring and oversight. Had Utica been paying attention, as they were advised to do by the NCAA, and been proactive in their approach to the grant program, they could have avoided even the slap on the wrist that the NCAA has given them.

In short: yes, everybody tries to take advantage of the tools provided by the Financial Aid administration, but where they need to work for compliance is in monitoring the program and doing something when it becomes clear that the program is no longer compliant or sustainable.

+2

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

The case of Plattsburgh, and Oswego until recently, having more internationals than Utica is easily explained by a much greater international enrollment. It's not "what percent of the aid goes to athletes?" But rather "Is the percentage of aid going to athletes similar to the percentage of the student body playing a sport?"

Plattsburgh gives its aid to all international students, not just Canadians, and the admissions department does a gantastic job advertising to potential students in Canada, Latin America, Europe, Southeat Asia, Africa... Basically everywhere. If you have a large number of international students, you can give the financial aid to an entire hockey team and still keep the percentage low.

Oswego was similar, but cancelled the program as soon as they noticed overall international enrollment beng reduced to levels at which the aid would not be sustainable under NCAA rules, and as a result the incoming freshman class has more Americans than any other under Gosek. Where Oswego got this right and Utica got this wrong, by their own admission, is monitoring and oversight. Had Utica been paying attention, as they were advised to do by the NCAA, and been proactive in their approach to the grant program, they could have avoided even the slap on the wrist that the NCAA has given them.

In short: yes, everybody tries to take advantage of the tools provided by the Financial Aid administration, but where they need to work for compliance is in monitoring the program and doing something when it becomes clear that the program is no longer compliant or sustainable.

Good post; refreshingly intelligent and dispassionate, if you get my drift.

I never meant to imply that Utica was compliant or that any other school was not. I will assume that neither was case... Thing is, that wasn't to my point at all.

I was just saying that the infractions in question did not even serve to bring Utica up-to-par with some other schools re: numbers of international players, let alone lend them any relative competitive advantage in that regard. Truly, in terms of successfully finding a way around the system, Utica is still sucking hind mammary relative to traditional Eastern D-3 powers. (I'm sure they'll get it right soon, though, and find the requisite loopholes. Maybe they should send their compliance officer to Platty for a week, just to see how it's done..?)

As Madame Curie pointed out, Utica had something like three Canadians on the roster over a ten-year span, but that was a consequence of an administrative decision barred recruiting up there. That edict has recently been withdrawn, and I'm guessing that UC will soon be absolutely stacked with over-age Canucks. (I have absolutely no problem with that, either... The OJHL is a rich font of talent to exploit, and, as a fan, all I care about is that the 22 YO "Freshman" play good hockey and not be serial-killers, or worse.)

Everyone is looking for an angle in this life, whether they care to admit it or not... Getting it right just takes some practice.

GO UC!

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

1. It doesn't matter if Utica had 4 total awards given out, and 3 went to Athletes, its still illegal in the NCAA's eyes. The 81% was shown because its not the 49/51 that it needs to be. Utica was NOT as bad as other teams in their misuse of the FA Grant system.



It DOESN'T matter how many are or are not on a team. Potsdam Women's Lacrosse had ONE Canadian player on their team, and because she received the grant that wasn't in compliance to the 49/51% NCAA rule, the WHOLE team received sanctions. You're already confused.



No one said Utica cheated. The NCAA LET'S teams USE the FA Grants if they do it right. Meaning a maximum of 49% to Athletes. How hard is that to understand. Utica did not follow the rule, and is now punished.

The POINT is, Utica is now the 7th or 8th DIII Hockey team to be caught. It's been very well documented and has been discussed at seminars about this EXACT thing. ANYONE who gets caught now has no one but their selves to blame. What I tried to explain to you, which maybe if you pulled your head out of your own cavity search instead of instantly bashing someone for your clueless knowledge on things, is that teams who hand out small numbers of grants (like Utica) who don't have a large international student body to begin with receiving the grants (like Utica) need to make sure that they reach that 51% to NON ATHLETES more carefully. Yes Utica only had 16 grants in 2 years. All Utica needed was to admit another 11 Canadian NON ATHLETES and they would have been fine as their ratio would have met the legal limits. Utica is NOT on the same tier as Neumann when it comes to this whole thing. It's not the #'s or %'s that makes people shake their heads at Utica, its the fact that SO many teams have been caught, you would think teams like Utica would be more careful, but not so. Understand now? No one is bashing Utica for trying to do the right thing or a good thing. They just didn't watch it close enough to make sure it was being done right.

Think of it this way. Your 1 co-worker gets in trouble for mopping the floors with a dirty mop, he gets fired. The next guy comes in, gets told the last guy got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop and mops the floor with a dirty mop, get fired. The next guy comes in, gets told the last two guys got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop and mops the floor with a dirty mop, get fired. The next guy comes in, gets told that the last three guys got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop and mops the floor with a dirty mop, get fired. Then you come in and they tell you the last four guys got fired for mopping the floor with a dirty mop, yet you still mop the floor with a dirty mop.

Again, its not the point of how many or yadda yadda yadda, the point is teams/schools ARE STILL doing this after seeing it happen several times over the past few seasons yet NOW the NCAA just tells teams to stop and we will just watch you to make sure you don't do it again. There were teams who were banned from post season play because of this, yet now teams get told just don't do it again.

Did Utica "cheat", seeing how there have only been 8 Canadian players on their team no. What you're missing is a bottom tier DIII team (not Utica here now) can literally go out and make this amazing FA Grant package that will load their team up with Canadians (and depending on the amount of the grant probably decent ones) go out and win a ton of games for a couple years. The NCAA comes in now and says "You didn't follow the rules. Stop the grants and just don't do it again." By then the team that was a mid to bottom tier DIII team has gained notoriety and can work their way out of the bottom tier of DIII teams and become at least respectable.

Now having said that, there ARE teams who have began to offer FA Grants and follow the 49/51 rule and are doing well, LEGALLY.

I understand your frustrations, but because a team stacks up on Canadian players LEGALLY does not make it wrong. Your top teams have all had a very high number of Canadian/Foreign players on their teams. This isn't about how many are on teams, its about the $$$ they give not only the athletes but the non-athletes as well. Just because teams like Plattsburgh can have a high number of international students to maintain the 49/51 ratio doesn't mean they are cheating. Utica could start their own international program, get 50 or 60 international students into their school and then hand out grants to athletes on a 49/51% ratio. Sorry if you think I came down on Utica to hard lol it's not about the % anymore. Utica could have given out 115 of the 118 grants to athletes and would have been told the same thing now days.

However, if you don't think handing out those 13 awards HELPED Utica, you're on crack. The stats show it. Utica was a .500 team prior to the Canadian players showing up. They did pick up over 25% of Utica's points over the three seasons. Here's a question for you.

Had Utica NOT handed out those grants would:
A. The Canadian players come to Utica (maybe Adams because it was a school degree choice)?
B. Would they have become a Championship contender or even this year favorite with out the Canadian players?

My answer, No, and No. For two simple reasons. Utica was a school who had 3 Canadians total in 10 years. Obviously something drew them to Utica besides the Aud. And B, no. They would have still been a good DIII team, but not a contender/favorite. Several UC fans even commented to me that it was about time UC got on track with the FA process. The process is a great thing for the school and team, as long as its done right and with in the rules. Utica did not, how hard is it to grasp?



The only thing dumb here is you. Everyone else gets it. Everyone else understands it, except you. So who's the dumb one?



There is no twisting numbers. The ratio is simple...give more to NON ATHLETES then you do ATHLETES. As I said, Utica's 81% is NOT as big of a deal as Neumann's 115 of 118, for sure. But its the fact Utica is playing dumb like they didn't know. EVERYONE KNOWS NOW!!!

Champs, you know I love you like you were one of my own, but I have to ask you this: are you really my ex-wife? (Your debating strategy is eerily similar: hammer-away off-point relentlessly, until my eyes glass-over at the sheer irrelevance of your opinion.)

Tell ya what: if you are actually another person, I'll introduce you two, and I'll even pay for dinner. It's a match made in Heaven.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

...

I was just saying that the infractions in question did not even serve to bring Utica up-to-par with some other schools re: numbers of international players, let alone lend them any relative competitive advantage in that regard. Truly, in terms of successfully finding a way around the system, Utica is still sucking hind mammary relative to traditional Eastern D-3 powers. (I'm sure they'll get it right soon, though, and find the requisite loopholes. Maybe they should send their compliance officer to Platty for a week, just to see how it's done..?)
..

Everyone is looking for an angle in this life, whether they care to admit it or not... Getting it right just takes some practice.

GO UC!

Fish, I think your ex-wife has your USCHO password.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Good post; refreshingly intelligent and dispassionate, if you get my drift.

I never meant to imply that Utica was compliant or that any other school was not. I will assume that neither was case... Thing is, that wasn't to my point at all.

Okay I'm with you so far...but this is where you start to lose it, yet somewhat are saying the same thing that I was saying.

I was just saying that the infractions in question did not even serve to bring Utica up-to-par with some other schools re: numbers of international players,

1. What other teams have as far as #'s doesn't matter, as long as its done LEGAL and with in the rules. Teams could have 28 Russians on their team, as long as it was done right.

let alone lend them any relative competitive advantage in that regard.

Once again, refer back to the stats or try to believe its just a kawinki-dink.

1. Utica hockey is born
2. Utica hockey for 10 years has 3 total Canadians
3. Utica hockey is a .500 team over those 10 years
4. Utica hockey creates "Canadian Grant Program"
5. Utica hockey picks up 5 Canadian players in 1 year
6. Utica hockey picks up another 3 Canadian players the next year
7. Utica hockey becomes a nearly .700 team over those 3 years
8. Utica gets stops "Canadian Grant Program"
9. 2013-2014 recruits list ZERO Canadian Freshman coming in of their NINE listed recruits

Now lets list what Fish says
1. Utica hockey is born
2. Utica hockey for 10 years has 3 total Canadians because the AD doesn't let the staff recruit in Canada (Yet they are bringing in American born players from the same Canadian Junior teams) must have been a large Skype bill for Heenan not to go see those teams/players as he wasn't allowed to recruit in Canada....
3. Utica hockey is a .500 team over those 10 years
4. Utica hockey creates Canadian Grant Program, but doesn't mention it to the hockey recruits because it doesn't matter
5. Utica hockey picks up 5 Canadian players in year 1 of the Canadian grant program because the AD said "Coach Heenan you may cross the border to go look at Canadian Junior hockey teams" and the whole Canadian Grant Program slips everyone's mind. They only come because well, its Utica.
6. Utica hockey picks up another 3 Canadian players the next year after the grant program was started and once again they never mention the grant program to recruits because they don't need to, its Utica. Heenan is just happy his AD gave him permission to go watch some Canadian Jr Hockey games, because he's never seen them before since he wasn't allowed to recruit up in Canada.
7. Utica hockey becomes a nearly .700 team over those 3 years
8. Utica stops "Canadian Grant Program" because the NCAA didn't realize Utica couldn't figure out 13 Athletes is MORE then 3 Non-Athletes at their school
9. 2013-2014 recruits list ZERO Canadian Freshman coming in of their NINE listed recruits, but the grant program had no influence on Canadians wanting to and being recruited by Utica. They were only wanted/recruited because the AD said Heenan could look during that three year period Utica just happened to have those grants in place.

Truly, in terms of successfully finding a way around the system, Utica is still sucking hind mammary relative to traditional Eastern D-3 powers. (I'm sure they'll get it right soon, though, and find the requisite loopholes.

Once again your ignorance is showing. It really isnt a loophole. Its as simple as making sure you have MORE Canadian NON ATHLETES at your school receiving the grant then you do ATHLETES. Is it that hard to understand. Nevermind, remembering the source here.

They are only "sucking hind mammary" because they haven't created a large enough NON ATHLETIC Canadian base student population. Get more NON ATHLETIC Canadian Students and you can recruit more Canadian ATHLETIC Students. Pretty simple.

Maybe they should send their compliance officer to Platty for a week, just to see how it's done..?)

So they can tell them that 49% is less then 51% ?? It's not a hard concept.

As Madame Curie pointed out, Utica had something like three Canadians on the roster over a ten-year span, but that was a consequence of an administrative decision barred recruiting up there.

So let me get this straight. You're saying the administration told the Utica staff they were not allowed to recruit "up there" as in Canada? Yet they had several dozen players over those years FROM CANADIAN JUNIOR HOCKEY TEAMS, who were Americans.... Hmmm.....

That edict has recently been withdrawn, and I'm guessing that UC will soon be absolutely stacked with over-age Canucks.

So what's recent? Because this year 8 of the 9 listed recruits are NOT from Canadian Jr teams and ZERO of Canadian themselves. Does the AD flip a coin as to where Heenan can or cant recruit from? Must be another one of your kawinki-dinks right? Because obviously dropping that Canadian Grant Program had NO affect on recruiting Canadian born players now.....

(I have absolutely no problem with that, either... The OJHL is a rich font of talent to exploit, and, as a fan, all I care about is that the 22 YO "Freshman" play good hockey and not be serial-killers, or worse.)

Hey Guess what Fish we agree.

Everyone is looking for an angle in this life, whether they care to admit it or not...

Yes they do, and to be competitive on the National level (especially here on the East) you need Canadian's on your team to be a regular on the National level. Heenan was doing a decent job fielding a decent DIII team for years with pretty much only American born players.

Getting it right just takes some practice.

While practice helps, the NCAA won't care if Utica gets it wrong, and will be hit with sanctions. My 5 year old knows that 51 is more then 49....

I do however understand what you're saying about "it was only a handful of players".

You get a speeding ticket going 70 in a 55
Your buddy (assuming you have some) gets one going 70 in a 35
Did you both commit a traffic violation? Yes
Did you both break the law? Yes
Are they both equal? No

Utica is just simply another team getting pulled over and getting let go. How would you feel if School A and Utica were going after this top recruit(s). School A offered them a "Canadian Grant Program" of which they are the only ones at the school they give it to. Player(s) choose to go to School A because it was free, they become All Americans, Players Of The Year, School A wins ECAC West and National Title. Next year same thing. The best players out there want to go to School A or Utica. School A offers them the same bogus Canadian grant program, they too become All Americans as a Fr., win Co-Player of The Year, School A wins ECAC West and National Title. Mind you if it wasn't for this Canadian grant program, they wouldn't have even thought of School A, but because it was free why not? The NCAA hears of this, investigates, and admit School A did something illegal. But then tell them, we know you didn't mean it, you can keep all your wins, titles, ect.

The point is teams (not so much Utica as their numbers while % wise were well far from the 49-51 ratio) can offer these Canadian Grant Programs now, load up on Canadians (No Utica didn't), give them all this $$$$ for a couple years, win some games, even a National Title, become a decent team, get caught by the police (NCAA Rules Committee), and then be told to not do it again, that's it. Are you seeing the point now Fish? Utica is now the 7th or 8th DIII team to get caught doing this. While it wasn't the hundred + like other teams, it was still illegal and after all the well documented cases dealing with the SAME issue simply ignorant now.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Okay I'm with you so far...but this is where you start to lose it, yet somewhat are saying the same thing that I was saying.



1. What other teams have as far as #'s doesn't matter, as long as its done LEGAL and with in the rules. Teams could have 28 Russians on their team, as long as it was done right.



Once again, refer back to the stats or try to believe its just a kawinki-dink.

1. Utica hockey is born
2. Utica hockey for 10 years has 3 total Canadians
3. Utica hockey is a .500 team over those 10 years
4. Utica hockey creates "Canadian Grant Program"
5. Utica hockey picks up 5 Canadian players in 1 year
6. Utica hockey picks up another 3 Canadian players the next year
7. Utica hockey becomes a nearly .700 team over those 3 years
8. Utica gets stops "Canadian Grant Program"
9. 2013-2014 recruits list ZERO Canadian Freshman coming in of their NINE listed recruits

Now lets list what Fish says
1. Utica hockey is born
2. Utica hockey for 10 years has 3 total Canadians because the AD doesn't let the staff recruit in Canada (Yet they are bringing in American born players from the same Canadian Junior teams) must have been a large Skype bill for Heenan not to go see those teams/players as he wasn't allowed to recruit in Canada....
3. Utica hockey is a .500 team over those 10 years
4. Utica hockey creates Canadian Grant Program, but doesn't mention it to the hockey recruits because it doesn't matter
5. Utica hockey picks up 5 Canadian players in year 1 of the Canadian grant program because the AD said "Coach Heenan you may cross the border to go look at Canadian Junior hockey teams" and the whole Canadian Grant Program slips everyone's mind. They only come because well, its Utica.
6. Utica hockey picks up another 3 Canadian players the next year after the grant program was started and once again they never mention the grant program to recruits because they don't need to, its Utica. Heenan is just happy his AD gave him permission to go watch some Canadian Jr Hockey games, because he's never seen them before since he wasn't allowed to recruit up in Canada.
7. Utica hockey becomes a nearly .700 team over those 3 years
8. Utica stops "Canadian Grant Program" because the NCAA didn't realize Utica couldn't figure out 13 Athletes is MORE then 3 Non-Athletes at their school
9. 2013-2014 recruits list ZERO Canadian Freshman coming in of their NINE listed recruits, but the grant program had no influence on Canadians wanting to and being recruited by Utica. They were only wanted/recruited because the AD said Heenan could look during that three year period Utica just happened to have those grants in place.





Once again your ignorance is showing. It really isnt a loophole. Its as simple as making sure you have MORE Canadian NON ATHLETES at your school receiving the grant then you do ATHLETES. Is it that hard to understand. Nevermind, remembering the source here.

They are only "sucking hind mammary" because they haven't created a large enough NON ATHLETIC Canadian base student population. Get more NON ATHLETIC Canadian Students and you can recruit more Canadian ATHLETIC Students. Pretty simple.



So they can tell them that 49% is less then 51% ?? It's not a hard concept.



So let me get this straight. You're saying the administration told the Utica staff they were not allowed to recruit "up there" as in Canada? Yet they had several dozen players over those years FROM CANADIAN JUNIOR HOCKEY TEAMS, who were Americans.... Hmmm.....



So what's recent? Because this year 8 of the 9 listed recruits are NOT from Canadian Jr teams and ZERO of Canadian themselves. Does the AD flip a coin as to where Heenan can or cant recruit from? Must be another one of your kawinki-dinks right? Because obviously dropping that Canadian Grant Program had NO affect on recruiting Canadian born players now.....



Hey Guess what Fish we agree.



Yes they do, and to be competitive on the National level (especially here on the East) you need Canadian's on your team to be a regular on the National level. Heenan was doing a decent job fielding a decent DIII team for years with pretty much only American born players.



While practice helps, the NCAA won't care if Utica gets it wrong, and will be hit with sanctions. My 5 year old knows that 51 is more then 49....

I do however understand what you're saying about "it was only a handful of players".

You get a speeding ticket going 70 in a 55
Your buddy (assuming you have some) gets one going 70 in a 35
Did you both commit a traffic violation? Yes
Did you both break the law? Yes
Are they both equal? No

Utica is just simply another team getting pulled over and getting let go. How would you feel if School A and Utica were going after this top recruit(s). School A offered them a "Canadian Grant Program" of which they are the only ones at the school they give it to. Player(s) choose to go to School A because it was free, they become All Americans, Players Of The Year, School A wins ECAC West and National Title. Next year same thing. The best players out there want to go to School A or Utica. School A offers them the same bogus Canadian grant program, they too become All Americans as a Fr., win Co-Player of The Year, School A wins ECAC West and National Title. Mind you if it wasn't for this Canadian grant program, they wouldn't have even thought of School A, but because it was free why not? The NCAA hears of this, investigates, and admit School A did something illegal. But then tell them, we know you didn't mean it, you can keep all your wins, titles, ect.

The point is teams (not so much Utica as their numbers while % wise were well far from the 49-51 ratio) can offer these Canadian Grant Programs now, load up on Canadians (No Utica didn't), give them all this $$$$ for a couple years, win some games, even a National Title, become a decent team, get caught by the police (NCAA Rules Committee), and then be told to not do it again, that's it. Are you seeing the point now Fish? Utica is now the 7th or 8th DIII team to get caught doing this. While it wasn't the hundred + like other teams, it was still illegal and after all the well documented cases dealing with the SAME issue simply ignorant now.

+1

 

[joecct]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Which begs the question - when will the NCAA drop a big hammer on an D-III school?

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Fish, I think your ex-wife has your USCHO password.

(That's possible; she sued for half of my "intellectual property".)

OK fellas, let me try this again...

Last I checked, this was a "hockey" forum, as opposed to a "compliance" forum. (Are we all going to start bragging about graduation rates next? Please.)

As I mentioned previously, I'm willing to assume that UC violated certain rules, but not to the extent that it stacked its team with Canadian ringers, as did, say, Oswego and Platty... Ergo, Utica gained no competitive advantage via their shameful cheating.

Having said that, what's with all the outrage? In this hockey context, does anyone really care about the ratio of Ethiopian engineering students vs. basket-weaving Ontarians at a particular school? I sure don't.

It's beyond stupid to attempt to fashion this issue into some sort of a morality play. There are clearly a handful of Eastern teams who place an emphasis on hockey and know how to work the system, and I hope UC will soon join that fold.

It's all in how you shuffle the cards, and that's generally how the world works, last I checked.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

(That's possible; she sued for half of my "intellectual property".)

OK fellas, let me try this again...

Last I checked, this was a "hockey" forum, as opposed to a "compliance" forum. (Are we all going to start bragging about graduation rates next? Please.)

As I mentioned previously, I'm willing to assume that UC violated certain rules, but not to the extent that it stacked its team with Canadian ringers, as did, say, Oswego and Platty... Ergo, Utica gained no competitive advantage via their shameful cheating.

Having said that, what's with all the outrage? In this hockey context, does anyone really care about the ratio of Ethiopian engineering students vs. basket-weaving Ontarians at a particular school? I sure don't.

It's beyond stupid to attempt to fashion this issue into some sort of a morality play. There are clearly a handful of Eastern teams who place an emphasis on hockey and know how to work the system, and I hope UC will soon join that fold.

It's all in how you shuffle the cards, and that's generally how the world works, last I checked.

Well first to give you a little credit in noting that Utica might be capable of less than perfection.

That said, "It's beyond stupid to attempt to" claim that "Utica gained no competitive advantage via their shameful cheating". Did they achieve parity with Oswego & Plattsburgh, probably not, particularly since they are burdened by being members of the lowly ECAC-West, but nevertheless, going from .500 to .700 showed a gain in competitiveness.

And BTW, if any anyone knows how to shuffle the Cards, it is Emery, but he does do it - with all due diligence - within the rules

 

[vcxc3200]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Well, I have the new assistant's name if anyone is interested.

It's former Ferris State Bulldog(And their captain), Texas Star, and Wilkes Barre-Scranton Penguin Cody Chupp.

cool guy. Seems like he'll fit in quite nicely.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Not sure where the Dope Squad is getting its numbers... As a point of fact, Utica is 165-119 over its history, with winning seasons in 8 of 12 years.

Not world-beaters, but hardly a .500 team.

 

[dmac1103]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Not sure where the Dope Squad is getting its numbers... As a point of fact, Utica is 165-119 over its history, with winning seasons in 8 of 12 years.

Not world-beaters, but hardly a .500 team.

The past 3 years Utica has a winning % of .688 the 9 years before that their winning % was .534. So yes before the infractions they were a .500 team and after the winning % jumped over .100 points. The win-loss-tie records were found right here on USCHO in case you were wondering where my numbers came from. While yes the Canadian players may not have lit up the scoring that does not mean they did not have some sort of impact and nor does it mean that the coach's did not hope they would become superstars. Show me a coach that recruits players that he does not believe will continue their development in college hockey, there are not any. They all believe these players will continue their success from JR's to college but that is not always the case in terms of the score sheet. Platty, Oswego and many other D3 and D1 teams have these players each year and it can be for a number of reasons. More people are going to continue to chime in because to me and others you are defending the actions of the school in miss handling the use of these funds, because the players were not superstars. Either way they messed up either intentionally or unintentionally and have to face the music which they did with the punishment, that's the end of it.

 

[Fishman's XWife]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

(That's possible; she sued for half of my "intellectual property".)

Now you, I, and these fine hockey fans know that cannot be true.

 

[joecct]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

The key is D-I transfers. You have to be able to keep your ear to the ground and find out when somebody is unhappy and leaving a D-I program so you can snatch them before some other top flight program gets him.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Now you, I, and these fine hockey fans know that cannot be true.

And I'm sure if she did, she wishes she didn't - though it would explain his half-baked ideas.

 

[LakerEagleLover]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season (Part Two)

Now you, I, and these fine hockey fans know that cannot be true.

Proof that NSA authentication protocols and facial recognition software has been disabled (at USCHO, at least).