Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

I believe in D1 circles the political correctness and appropriate description for Canton's location is "the north country".I'm sure if the coaches in the ECAC-W were polled it would be unanimous in favour of inclusion. A nice place to vist any time of the year.

Although, admittedly, that half of the North Country can be a bit tricky to visit in the heart of winter (take your pick: icy roads in the mountains or a crap-ton of snow coming off of Lake Ontario). But yes, totally worth the visit no matter the conditions!

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

and if its past Yonkers its upstate.....

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

So, the whole ECAC West is located in the Extreme Boondocks as far as I'm concerned...

Northfield isn't exactly a thriving metropolis...

 

[hawk]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Castleton is a very good team. That being said, despite the fact that they have really improved in the area of taking penalties - their penalty minutes per game is in the bottom 10 at about 11-12 minutes per game, they still seem a bit undisciplined and go out of their way sometimes to make a hit. Their non-conference schedule has been pretty weak, playing Morrisville, Becker, and Plymouth State. They got through their first round of the ECAC East with only a loss to Norwich, but as usual the ECAC East is kind of a mixed bag. I think this tournament will really be telling as far as how "real" they are. It looks like a good field.

Prof in looking at Utica's schedule I noticed that they have played the following teams:
Brokport, St. Mike's, Westfield State, Buffalo State, Potsdam, Salve Regina-the Sunyac teams are all have good hockey programs, however, I don't believe any of the teams are in the class of Norwich, Plattsburgh, Elmira, or Castleton. Castleton goalie Eric Cinotti is the best D3 goalie I have seen play this year and has a SV% of .942. Castleton has been improving every year and should be very completitive in the Plattsburgh tournament and just maybe goaltending will give them the edge.

Speaking of the possibilty of the ECAC E and ECAC W having an interlocking schedule why not limit travel to 2-3 road trips a year for each school. They could rotate the schedule so each ECAC E team would play a ECAC W school at least one every two years. The Norwich women already travel to Manhattnaville for league games.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Typical New Englander attitude... if it's more than 2 hours from <strike>Boston</strike> Northfield, it might as well be California

Fixed your post for accuracy. As far as I'm concerned Boston is in the Boonies.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

Since I was bored I did a little mapquesting....

<table>					
<tr><td>	Conference	</td><td>	Avg Travel	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	MCHA	</td><td>	221	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	ECAC W/ CANTON	</td><td>	182	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	ECAC WEST	</td><td>	161	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	NESCAC	</td><td>	161	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	SUNYAC	</td><td>	156	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	NCHA	</td><td>	143	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	ECAC EAST	</td><td>	128	</td></tr>	
<tr><td>	MIAC	</td><td>	100	</td></tr>	</table>

Adrian has the longest average travel at 420 miles per team while the St.Paul/Minny schools from the MIAC only average about 70...

I then added in Canton to the ECAC West....its only an average difference of +20, but a +20 is huge...

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

With the recent flurry of interesting and provocative posts -nice job, guys- I really don't know where to start.

First and foremost though, is the question of boondockery, and there is clearly no political division in the Northeast less accessible than Vermont. (This being why so many post-modern hippies choose to live there, alongside refugees from the old Soviet empire... One can disappear quite easily in the Green Mountain State.) An East/West interstate is certainly in order there, already! ("You just can't get there from here", right?) Being from Maine, I have a handle on that general concept.

Secondly, I'm a bit flabbergasted to hear that suggesting that anyone adding Canton to their schedule is looking at a mere 20-mile average addition to their existing travel woes...

I mean to say: it's at least 2.5 hours from the nearest W team, for instance. Perhaps the proximity of the SUNY as a whole drives down the average trip of that large league in a (misleading) sort of way..? Haven't done the mileage-math, and I won't, but Canton looks like a no-brainer for the SUNY to adopt.

Been to Canton/Potsdam for a few D-1 games, stayed in Ogdensberg every time, and certainly the St. Lawrence is a magnificent river, and the area in general is rather pristine, and a nice place to visit... But it is without a doubt extremely out-of-the-way of anyone not looking to smuggle bootleg cigarettes across the border.

I'm of the opinion that Canton will land in the SUNY, and that appears to be the best fit to me. (Too bad for the W.)

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

With the recent flurry of interesting and provocative posts -nice job, guys- I really don't know where to start.

First and foremost though, is the question of boondockery, and there is clearly no political division in the Northeast less accessible than Vermont. (This being why so many post-modern hippies choose to live there, alongside refugees from the old Soviet empire... One can disappear quite easily in the Green Mountain State.) An East/West interstate is certainly in order there, already! ("You just can't get there from here", right?) Being from Maine, I have a handle on that general concept.

Secondly, I'm a bit flabbergasted to hear that suggesting that anyone adding Canton to their schedule is looking at a mere 20-mile average addition to their existing travel woes...

I mean to say: it's at least 2.5 hours from the nearest W team, for instance. Perhaps the proximity of the SUNY as a whole drives down the average trip of that large league in a (misleading) sort of way..? Haven't done the mileage-math, and I won't, but Canton looks like a no-brainer for the SUNY to adopt.

Been to Canton/Potsdam for a few D-1 games, stayed in Ogdensberg every time, and certainly the St. Lawrence is a magnificent river, and the area in general is rather pristine, and a nice place to visit... But it is without a doubt extremely out-of-the-way of anyone not looking to smuggle bootleg cigarettes across the border.

I'm of the opinion that Canton will land in the SUNY, and that appears to be the best fit to me. (Too bad for the W.)

Two things to keep in mind....

Yes, there is extra travel...however....if Canton joins the SUNYAC they will have to either A. partner with Morrisville (160 miles away) or B. go at it alone making for a very long trip for 90 % of the teams to make a single game road trip. 4 of the 10 SUNYAC teams would be traveling 240+ miles for one game as well.

So back to point A. travel partners with Morrisville....

The ECAC West teams all have to travel to Utica....Utica to Canton is approx. 133 miles. Yes Manhatanville and Neumann both average above 250 miles to visit each team with Canton included (Neumann would be the highest with 274), Plattsburgh averages around 270.

All that being said, you have to ask the real question...is an extra few miles worth adding that team to get you the autobid over a conference that is already set in that category, and really large enough?? The ECAC West schools didnt have an issue with adding Manhatanville and Neumann and making those long 300 mile trips then, most of the schools would all be around 175 miles (taking out Manhatanville and Neumann). The NESCAC, MCHA, and SUNYAC all have 3-4 teams who have an average travel of 200+ miles. Manhatanville and Neumann may just have to take one for the team.

As far as "getting there"....You are looking at a 90-100 miles on decent secondary roads. Not all schools are a hop skip jump off of major highways like Utica can be. Take a trip from Plattsburgh to Bowdoin and Colby..."Last gas station for 90 miles"...I've been to a lot of hockey rinks and towns, getting to Canton is not that hard or really out of the way in the "boonies"..and if that highway plan ever takes off it will be even easier

So once again I ask... Is having to drive a few extra miles worth having an autobid?? ....Let's ask this again in March if and when ZERO ECAC West schools make the dance with no autobid.....and for the record, its not so much about deserving the extra Pool C slot as it is ALL legitimate Conferences SHOULD get an autobid. I will not argue on the ECAC West being over or under rated, or "we beat up on each other all season and have too many losses"....simply stating you are not dealing with a group of teams who find themselves year in, year out at the bottom of the National standings. I would hate to see a few miles be the difference in seeing NO ECAC West team in the NCAA's.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

First and foremost though, is the question of boondockery, and there is clearly no political division in the Northeast less accessible than Vermont. (This being why so many post-modern hippies choose to live there, alongside refugees from the old Soviet empire... One can disappear quite easily in the Green Mountain State.) An East/West interstate is certainly in order there, already! ("You just can't get there from here", right?) Being from Maine, I have a handle on that general concept.

First of all - it's worth it to get to Vermont - it's a well know fact that there are very few places that are worth getting to from Vermont. . It's not that Vermont is inaccessible, its just that the non-Vermont world is so hard to get to. As for an E-W interstate - you'd have to blow up a lot of mountains to build one. We do have a NW - SE interstate in I89. Norwich students know that road real well

 

[Derek Dunning]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

First of all - it's worth it to get to Vermont - it's a well know fact that there are very few places that are worth getting to from Vermont. . It's not that Vermont is inaccessible, its just that the non-Vermont world is so hard to get to. As for an E-W interstate - you'd have to blow up a lot of mountains to build one. We do have a NW - SE interstate in I89. Norwich students know that road real well

The one that really grinds my gears is that Northfield, Vt. is 27 miles as the crow flies from Middlebury, Vt. yet you have to go all the way up to Burlington to get there unless you want to go over two mountain ranges which makes the trip 1:15-1:30.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

The one that really grinds my gears is that Northfield, Vt. is 27 miles as the crow flies from Middlebury, Vt. yet you have to go all the way up to Burlington to get there unless you want to go over two mountain ranges which makes the trip 1:15-1:30.

Dig a tunnel?

 

[OSU2010]

Two things to keep in mind....

Yes, there is extra travel...however....if Canton joins the SUNYAC they will have to either A. partner with Morrisville (160 miles away) or B. go at it alone making for a very long trip for 90 % of the teams to make a single game road trip. 4 of the 10 SUNYAC teams would be traveling 240+ miles for one game as well.

So back to point A. travel partners with Morrisville....

The ECAC West teams all have to travel to Utica....Utica to Canton is approx. 133 miles. Yes Manhatanville and Neumann both average above 250 miles to visit each team with Canton included (Neumann would be the highest with 274), Plattsburgh averages around 270.

All that being said, you have to ask the real question...is an extra few miles worth adding that team to get you the autobid over a conference that is already set in that category, and really large enough?? The ECAC West schools didnt have an issue with adding Manhatanville and Neumann and making those long 300 mile trips then, most of the schools would all be around 175 miles (taking out Manhatanville and Neumann). The NESCAC, MCHA, and SUNYAC all have 3-4 teams who have an average travel of 200+ miles. Manhatanville and Neumann may just have to take one for the team.

As far as "getting there"....You are looking at a 90-100 miles on decent secondary roads. Not all schools are a hop skip jump off of major highways like Utica can be. Take a trip from Plattsburgh to Bowdoin and Colby..."Last gas station for 90 miles"...I've been to a lot of hockey rinks and towns, getting to Canton is not that hard or really out of the way in the "boonies"..and if that highway plan ever takes off it will be even easier

So once again I ask... Is having to drive a few extra miles worth having an autobid?? ....Let's ask this again in March if and when ZERO ECAC West schools make the dance with no autobid.....and for the record, its not so much about deserving the extra Pool C slot as it is ALL legitimate Conferences SHOULD get an autobid. I will not argue on the ECAC West being over or under rated, or "we beat up on each other all season and have too many losses"....simply stating you are not dealing with a group of teams who find themselves year in, year out at the bottom of the National standings. I would hate to see a few miles be the difference in seeing NO ECAC West team in the NCAA's.

Actually I could see Oswego Pairing with Canton and Morrisville pairing with Cortland.

I don't think Canton would really care about making the 7th team for the ECAC-W, I don't think they'll join out of the kindness of their hearts to help out the ECAC-W. they're going to do whatever is best for Canton. If they join the west one of the pool C's will disappear, I'm sure they'd rather join the SUNYAC and keep that extra Pool C option open.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Actually I could see Oswego Pairing with Canton and Morrisville pairing with Cortland.

I don't think Canton would really care about making the 7th team for the ECAC-W, I don't think they'll join out of the kindness of their hearts to help out the ECAC-W. they're going to do whatever is best for Canton. If they join the west one of the pool C's will disappear, I'm sure they'd rather join the SUNYAC and keep that extra Pool C option open.

From what I've been told the SUNYAC is not interested in adding any teams...Utica or Canton....If the SUNYAC says no.....they wont have much of an option.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

I have no idea how these things work, but it seems odd to me to think that a SUNY hockey conference could exclude SUNY-Canton, if Canton was to apply for membership. (Heck, they are already birth-right members, unlike a small private school such as Utica.)

I'd love to see the W expanded just enough to be "legitimized", though... Adding a team in addition to Nazareth could result in somewhat lesser travel expenses, as all ECAC-W HTH games should thereby be reduced to two per season, and with both games played at whatever rotating site is in the cards for that particular matchup, in that particular year... As it stands now for the W, each team endures one brutal weekend of travel between two (often) far-flung locales, just to get in their requisite 3 annual games vs. every team in the league. Would prolly be cheaper to travel less and stay the night in one spot. (Is there a Motel 6 in Canton, BTW?)

Still, to get back to my original thought, I can't see how the SUNY would shun Canton if they want in. I'm thinking that the W will have to woo a private school if it wants to flesh-out its league, and that makes perfect sense, sadly.

 

[Birdwatcher]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

I have no idea how these things work, but it seems odd to me to think that a SUNY hockey conference could exclude SUNY-Canton, if Canton was to apply for membership. (Heck, they are already birth-right members, unlike a small private school such as Utica.)

I'd love to see the W expanded just enough to be "legitimized", though... Adding a team in addition to Nazareth could result in somewhat lesser travel expenses, as all ECAC-W HTH games should thereby be reduced to two per season, and with both games played at whatever rotating site is in the cards for that particular matchup, in that particular year... As it stands now for the W, each team endures one brutal weekend of travel between two (often) far-flung locales, just to get in their requisite 3 annual games vs. every team in the league. Would prolly be cheaper to travel less and stay the night in one spot. (Is there a Motel 6 in Canton, BTW?)

Still, to get back to my original thought, I can't see how the SUNY would shun Canton if they want in. I'm thinking that the W will have to woo a private school if it wants to flesh-out its league, and that makes perfect sense, sadly.

It seems to me there is a DI (Hockey only) school in Canton??? The visiting teams get there just fine and there is a Hotel right next to that campus. Also, there are several loging choices within ten miles, between Canton and Potsdam!

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

I have no idea how these things work, but it seems odd to me to think that a SUNY hockey conference could exclude SUNY-Canton, if Canton was to apply for membership. (Heck, they are already birth-right members, unlike a small private school such as Utica.)

The State University of New York (SUNY) system and the State University of New York Athletics Conference (SUNYAC) are two separate entities. The schools are funded and governed by the SUNY system... but the schools fund and govern the SUNYAC. The SUNYAC bylaws don't even require members to be a SUNY school, just that they be a 4-year degree-granting Collegiate Institution that is a full member of the NCAA Division III. (That is obviously why UC was able to apply)

So, just because it's a school within the SUNY system does not mean they are "birth-right members". In fact, as has been previously stated, SUNY Canton does NOT appear to be seeking full membership in the SUNYAC. If they did, certainly I believe they would be accepted. But more than likely they are joining another DIII athletics conference, and at most would seek SUNYAC affiliate membership for hockey (à la Morrisville, who is not a SUNYAC school). The question then becomes whether the schools would allow that to happen. They had to amend their bylaws in order to allow Morrisville to do it in the first place, so there is question as to how willing they would be to allow more affiliates.

For the record: That applies to both Canton AND Utica, and I honestly don't expect that either would be accepted as affiliate members.

 

[OSU2010]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

A little fun fact, Canton is 18-0 in the ACHA Division I and their thinking of going DIII, UB also in the same league as canton is 7-10 and thinking of joining DI. Wonder how well that will translate over into the NCAA's.

I feel like the Utica thread has been hijacked by talk of canton. Looks like its going to be a tough weekend for Utica coming up, maybe their toughest weekend all year. They definitely want to win this to have a good shot at a pool C. I could see them splitting the weekend though.

 

[joecct]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

It seems to me there is a DI (Hockey only) school in Canton??? The visiting teams get there just fine and there is a Hotel right next to that campus. Also, there are several loging choices within ten miles, between Canton and Potsdam!

IIRC, both visiting teams stay there. When you add a third, rooms may be a bit of a premium, though I think there is a Comfort Inn @ the Rt 11 / 68 interchange.

The other lodging choices are generally pre interstate in decor, though most have internet. I usually stay @ Smallings.

But back to Utica. If they join SUNYAC, does it impact the Syracuse U diploma?

 

[Derek Dunning]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

A little fun fact, Canton is 18-0 in the ACHA Division I and their thinking of going DIII, UB also in the same league as canton is 7-10 and thinking of joining DI. Wonder how well that will translate over into the NCAA's.

I feel like the Utica thread has been hijacked by talk of canton. Looks like its going to be a tough weekend for Utica coming up, maybe their toughest weekend all year. They definitely want to win this to have a good shot at a pool C. I could see them splitting the weekend though.

I'm thinking Buffalo will be putting a tiny bit of different resources into a NCAA Division I program over an ACHA club team.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2011-2012

I'm thinking Buffalo will be putting a tiny bit of different resources into a NCAA Division I program over an ACHA club team.

Expect no members of the club team to carry over into the DI team at buffalo. Expect quite a few to carry over into a DIII team at Canton. Comparing them will be like comparing Apples to Oranges.

The only exception is if Buffalo does what Penn State is doing: hire a DI coach, make him coach the ACHA D1 team for a year before the NCAA team starts, allow him to pull in recruits who are willing to go without scholarships for their freshman year and have them play for said club team, and send a portion of the existing ACHA D1 team down to play for the ACHA D2 team. That's pretty much what Penn State's doing this year, and to great effect. At 14-2-0, The Icers are #1 in ACHA D1 (Canton's 18-0-3, 18-0-0 against non-NCAA competition, comes against easily the worst schedule of the top 15, so they're at #12), and the 17-2-0 Ice Lions are #3 in ACHA D2 Southeast (we have no national rankings until after the championship tournament).