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US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
- Thread starter Kepler
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
Dangerous. It signals to Putin, China, and now Turkey that they can feel free to invade others and if its at all dicey they'll get away with it. And even if he didn't plan to defend these countries, he'd (and possibly we'd) be in a world of hurt as he tried to justify extended implications on the geopolitical environment and US concerns, and possibly involve us in a war in hindsight anyways. As far as that goes, its much safer to say nothing.
But he's in 100% full stop populist mode. Major departure from past GOP policies (or those of really any modern, major politician).
Dangerous. It signals to Putin, China, and now Turkey that they can feel free to invade others and if its at all dicey they'll get away with it. And even if he didn't plan to defend these countries, he'd (and possibly we'd) be in a world of hurt as he tried to justify extended implications on the geopolitical environment and US concerns, and possibly involve us in a war in hindsight anyways. As far as that goes, its much safer to say nothing.
But he's in 100% full stop populist mode. Major departure from past GOP policies (or those of really any modern, major politician).
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
Yeah, this transcends party. Every administration since the formation of NATO has reiterated the collective defense clause, and for that matter what is the worth of any treaty with the US if we reserve the right to shirk?
I can't imagine that goes well for him with anyone. Even pacifists think we should renegotiate treaties to include provisos concerning the use of force, not just unilaterally abrogate such treaties as exist.
Yeah, this transcends party. Every administration since the formation of NATO has reiterated the collective defense clause, and for that matter what is the worth of any treaty with the US if we reserve the right to shirk?
I can't imagine that goes well for him with anyone. Even pacifists think we should renegotiate treaties to include provisos concerning the use of force, not just unilaterally abrogate such treaties as exist.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
If Russia stomps the Ukraine, is it in our national interest to commit troops? Looking back on 20/20 hindsight, maybe NATO should have stopped at the Germany/Poland bolder.
If Russia stomps the Ukraine, is it in our national interest to commit troops? Looking back on 20/20 hindsight, maybe NATO should have stopped at the Germany/Poland bolder.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
This is why Trump is going to lose by more than people are currently predicting. Those old school country club neo-cons aren't going to vote for him. Frankly one this one point the Sanders crowd is sorta correct. Hillary is in some respects closer to the ancient Reaganite foreign policy crowd than Trump is (mind you, I don't think Ronbo would have launched the 2nd Iraq War either). People who actually value sanity in the WH aren't voting for Trump (or Johnson for policy reasons). Now there aren't a ton of this crowd left, and they aren't going to swing the election one way or the other, but it fits into the way this race is playing out. Trump appeals to non-educated older white males and little else.
This is why Trump is going to lose by more than people are currently predicting. Those old school country club neo-cons aren't going to vote for him. Frankly one this one point the Sanders crowd is sorta correct. Hillary is in some respects closer to the ancient Reaganite foreign policy crowd than Trump is (mind you, I don't think Ronbo would have launched the 2nd Iraq War either). People who actually value sanity in the WH aren't voting for Trump (or Johnson for policy reasons). Now there aren't a ton of this crowd left, and they aren't going to swing the election one way or the other, but it fits into the way this race is playing out. Trump appeals to non-educated older white males and little else.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
No. But if Russia invades the Baltics, which are in NATO, then yes otherwise the treaty is toothless. Ukraine had their chance to join NATO.
No. But if Russia invades the Baltics, which are in NATO, then yes otherwise the treaty is toothless. Ukraine had their chance to join NATO.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
Ukraine is not a member of NATO.
But I agree with you that a treaty that mandates collective defense should not expand too far. Negotiating with Near Abroad countries like Georgia and Ukraine was very aggressive. How would we have felt if Mexico had joined the Warsaw Pact?
Still, I am all for protecting the three Baltic republics, even though Russia considers that provocative.
Ukraine is not a member of NATO.
But I agree with you that a treaty that mandates collective defense should not expand too far. Negotiating with Near Abroad countries like Georgia and Ukraine was very aggressive. How would we have felt if Mexico had joined the Warsaw Pact?
Still, I am all for protecting the three Baltic republics, even though Russia considers that provocative.
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
And supposedly, as part of the coup, all amateur radio licenses were revoked (whether that's true or just something they blew smoke about based on other communication licenses being revoked, who knows). https://amrron.com/2016/07/20/turkey-government-revokes-3213-ham-radio-licenses/
And supposedly, as part of the coup, all amateur radio licenses were revoked (whether that's true or just something they blew smoke about based on other communication licenses being revoked, who knows). https://amrron.com/2016/07/20/turkey-government-revokes-3213-ham-radio-licenses/
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
To back up what others have said, Ukraine is not in our sphere of interest. Neither is much of Asia or Africa. But we will stretch this concept if its the belligerent country is manageable (see desert storm). Its Ukraine's position outside why we have put heavy economic pressure on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine. OTOH, Europe proper is in our sphere of interest due to heavy economic and cultural ties with US citizens. This delineation is clear to all...and historically all have respected it. Hence, knowledge of what's not OK has resulted in protection from evolving dictatorships and peace in the first world. Regarding fudging on this idea in Europe proper, we learned our lessen with Hitler in the sudetenland. (Full disclosure: I have significant business interests in Riga).
To back up what others have said, Ukraine is not in our sphere of interest. Neither is much of Asia or Africa. But we will stretch this concept if its the belligerent country is manageable (see desert storm). Its Ukraine's position outside why we have put heavy economic pressure on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine. OTOH, Europe proper is in our sphere of interest due to heavy economic and cultural ties with US citizens. This delineation is clear to all...and historically all have respected it. Hence, knowledge of what's not OK has resulted in protection from evolving dictatorships and peace in the first world. Regarding fudging on this idea in Europe proper, we learned our lessen with Hitler in the sudetenland. (Full disclosure: I have significant business interests in Riga).
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
Among NATO nations, Poland is not in the traditional Western European-US sphere (they and US Catholics think they are but nobody else does). Neither are Turkey, Romania, Albania, Croatia, Slovakia (though Czechia is), Slovenia, or Hungary. Greece is weird -- it's on the bubble. So that chops 9 off the 28 to start with.
The natural geographic division is to have Finland, the Baltics, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and the Balkans be the Romulan Neutral Zone between the Russians in the east, the EU in the west, and Turkey in the south and everybody pray they can sort out the Middle East.
Among NATO nations, Poland is not in the traditional Western European-US sphere (they and US Catholics think they are but nobody else does). Neither are Turkey, Romania, Albania, Croatia, Slovakia (though Czechia is), Slovenia, or Hungary. Greece is weird -- it's on the bubble. So that chops 9 off the 28 to start with.
The natural geographic division is to have Finland, the Baltics, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and the Balkans be the Romulan Neutral Zone between the Russians in the east, the EU in the west, and Turkey in the south and everybody pray they can sort out the Middle East.
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mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
when did rover join charles river? brae burn? TCC? blue hills? wollaston? winchester?
when did rover join charles river? brae burn? TCC? blue hills? wollaston? winchester?
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
dunno. anyone who as read a history book (oh ok, sure. anyone over the age of 32 then) still carries big polish guilt. we like them and will go to the mat for them this time if needed. period.
dunno. anyone who as read a history book (oh ok, sure. anyone over the age of 32 then) still carries big polish guilt. we like them and will go to the mat for them this time if needed. period.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
Psst. The Neocons aint getting into those country clubs, Rover...
Psst. The Neocons aint getting into those country clubs, Rover...
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
Nah, that's a very brief moment of historical sentiment. They're like Greece and Armenia -- they're an anomaly that doesn't really fit anywhere. Ideally all the blocs would respect their neutrality and guard them from the others. But Poland doesn't have great luck with being guarded by committee.
Nah, that's a very brief moment of historical sentiment. They're like Greece and Armenia -- they're an anomaly that doesn't really fit anywhere. Ideally all the blocs would respect their neutrality and guard them from the others. But Poland doesn't have great luck with being guarded by committee.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
300 yrs from now when we are in the foreign policy thread you can group poland in with armenia historical
but not yet..
300 yrs from now when we are in the foreign policy thread you can group poland in with armenia historical
but not yet..
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
and it's not brief. it carried through to lech and the shipyards and solidarity. all the way to Saint JP2.
and it's not brief. it carried through to lech and the shipyards and solidarity. all the way to Saint JP2.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
That's part of the brief moment. In fact, that's it's crowning moment.
If the Poles have a historical link to any western country it's France.
That's part of the brief moment. In fact, that's it's crowning moment.
If the Poles have a historical link to any western country it's France.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais
I'm ungrouping them together.
300 yrs from now when we are in the foreign policy thread you can group poland in with armenia historical
but not yet..
I'm ungrouping them together.
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