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Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
AJE reporting Libyan State TV has announced that Quaddafi will make another public speech soon. All aboard the crazytrain.
Tripoli in lockdown, guerrilla warfare in the outlying areas, Benghazi and most of the eastern part of the country appear to be under the control of the pro-democracy protesters.
There are protests in Algeria in support of the Libyan revolution. Those may involve AQ in the Maghrib, the nasties the Algerian army had to ban from elections a few years ago because they were going to win and screw everything up, so I'm sure that's all we'll see now on nutbar outlets.
Edit: Quaddafi speaking now. "Bin Laden has been giving drugs to our kids causing them to misbehave."
AJE reporting Libyan State TV has announced that Quaddafi will make another public speech soon. All aboard the crazytrain.
Tripoli in lockdown, guerrilla warfare in the outlying areas, Benghazi and most of the eastern part of the country appear to be under the control of the pro-democracy protesters.
There are protests in Algeria in support of the Libyan revolution. Those may involve AQ in the Maghrib, the nasties the Algerian army had to ban from elections a few years ago because they were going to win and screw everything up, so I'm sure that's all we'll see now on nutbar outlets.
Edit: Quaddafi speaking now. "Bin Laden has been giving drugs to our kids causing them to misbehave."
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Re: Unrest in Egypt
After all, we wouldn't want to derail the discussion about unrest in EGYPT!
After all, we wouldn't want to derail the discussion about unrest in EGYPT!
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
Token Egypt news: Egyptians are coming across the Libyan border to help with the protests. So 90% of the country is trying to get out while these folks are trying to get in!
Quaddafi: "this is all Al Qaeda." Interestingly we aren't the Great Satan in this speech (for once), it's Bin Laden. "Get control of your teenagers and keep them at home." He keeps repeating that this is all stoned kids. "Hallucination pills." It's like listening to Spiro Agnew.
Interesting litany of messages directed both to his own middle class ("we had low interest loans!," "I'm only showing you parental care") and the US ("the flow of oil is endangered," "ZOMG Sharia Law!").
Now he's talking about international terrorism. That may not be the right card to play by Mr. Lockerbie.
After all, we wouldn't want to derail the discussion about unrest in EGYPT!
Token Egypt news: Egyptians are coming across the Libyan border to help with the protests. So 90% of the country is trying to get out while these folks are trying to get in!
Quaddafi: "this is all Al Qaeda." Interestingly we aren't the Great Satan in this speech (for once), it's Bin Laden. "Get control of your teenagers and keep them at home." He keeps repeating that this is all stoned kids. "Hallucination pills." It's like listening to Spiro Agnew.
Interesting litany of messages directed both to his own middle class ("we had low interest loans!," "I'm only showing you parental care") and the US ("the flow of oil is endangered," "ZOMG Sharia Law!").
Now he's talking about international terrorism. That may not be the right card to play by Mr. Lockerbie.
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Re: Unrest in Egypt
Both BBC and AJE reporting that Ka-Daffy's speech was via telephone rather than in a public setting like the one the other day. One hinted that may imply he's not even in Libya anymore. Another pointed out that he hung up abruptly. Makes you wonder whether he had to.
Also NPR did an interview this AM which suggested no EU/NATO intervention before all (white) foreigners are evacuated. Implication is no direct action against Ka-daffy for a few days at least.
Both BBC and AJE reporting that Ka-Daffy's speech was via telephone rather than in a public setting like the one the other day. One hinted that may imply he's not even in Libya anymore. Another pointed out that he hung up abruptly. Makes you wonder whether he had to.
Also NPR did an interview this AM which suggested no EU/NATO intervention before all (white) foreigners are evacuated. Implication is no direct action against Ka-daffy for a few days at least.
Re: Unrest in Egypt
I'm not surprised with all that crazy ranting. Looks like even his tribe has abandoned him and most government officials.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/24/libya-benghazi-muammar-gaddafi
I thought we were playing "AQ terrorist"/Iran scare about Muslim brotherhood but after watching Frontline coverage on the protest and interviews of the top Muslim brotherhood. It's clear they want another Iran theological Islamic rule.
And holy cow those guys were organized in the protest. At least that's the impression of the whole story. check points, handing out food-blankets...
just look at tea party or the old farts with enormous political clout in our country with a bit of organization.
I'm not surprised with all that crazy ranting. Looks like even his tribe has abandoned him and most government officials.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/24/libya-benghazi-muammar-gaddafi
I thought we were playing "AQ terrorist"/Iran scare about Muslim brotherhood but after watching Frontline coverage on the protest and interviews of the top Muslim brotherhood. It's clear they want another Iran theological Islamic rule.
And holy cow those guys were organized in the protest. At least that's the impression of the whole story. check points, handing out food-blankets...
just look at tea party or the old farts with enormous political clout in our country with a bit of organization.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: Unrest in Egypt
it is going to be rather tricky to see if the west can support freedom leaning protesters in the upcoming civil wars throughout the region. too bad we don't have a lot of good memories to fall back upon. though maybe many of them will see obama's planned pull out of iraq and figure the devil in the west is better than the devil that is the brotherhood.
of course, most of the brotherhood funding has got to be originating from saudi. that place needs to fall and see what happens. may bring most of the goons home to sure up the fort.
brotherhood learned though in egypt - snooze you lose.
it is going to be rather tricky to see if the west can support freedom leaning protesters in the upcoming civil wars throughout the region. too bad we don't have a lot of good memories to fall back upon. though maybe many of them will see obama's planned pull out of iraq and figure the devil in the west is better than the devil that is the brotherhood.
of course, most of the brotherhood funding has got to be originating from saudi. that place needs to fall and see what happens. may bring most of the goons home to sure up the fort.
brotherhood learned though in egypt - snooze you lose.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
Not really. First, Egypt itself is still wide open -- they're still protesting to get the interim government replaced by a technocrat caretaker. Second, it's unclear in many cases whether a given actor's a "good" theocrat or a "bad" theocrat. It would be a tragedy if we completely kicked the game over to the crazies because we couldn't stand any party with "Islamic" in its name. In some cases it's as benign as "Christian Democrats" is in Central Europe. We effed up like that with all the Third World "socialist" parties in the 50's and 60's just because some dip****s on the right couldn't stand the name.
One thing's for sure: nobody in the West knows, and everybody's just promulgating their agenda.
Not really. First, Egypt itself is still wide open -- they're still protesting to get the interim government replaced by a technocrat caretaker. Second, it's unclear in many cases whether a given actor's a "good" theocrat or a "bad" theocrat. It would be a tragedy if we completely kicked the game over to the crazies because we couldn't stand any party with "Islamic" in its name. In some cases it's as benign as "Christian Democrats" is in Central Europe. We effed up like that with all the Third World "socialist" parties in the 50's and 60's just because some dip****s on the right couldn't stand the name.
One thing's for sure: nobody in the West knows, and everybody's just promulgating their agenda.
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mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: Unrest in Egypt
if they had planned, it wouldn't be wide open. they are going in balls to the wall in libya to make sure they don't have to waste time.
if they had planned, it wouldn't be wide open. they are going in balls to the wall in libya to make sure they don't have to waste time.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
That would be a great resolution, but it's 3 hours later and I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere. Maybe they screwed up and were just recycling the old reports of the brothers shooting at each other?
That would be a great resolution, but it's 3 hours later and I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere. Maybe they screwed up and were just recycling the old reports of the brothers shooting at each other?
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
I think you could be falling for a canned narrative that makes us still think we have some idea of what's going on. We probably don't. The constellation of forces involved probably has nothing to do with the concepts we've used to try to model the region (assuming those concepts were ever anything real). It may be nothing so much as a 7th century Berber tribal war. We just don't know.
One thing about the birth of a new world. The old world is always the last to know.
I think you could be falling for a canned narrative that makes us still think we have some idea of what's going on. We probably don't. The constellation of forces involved probably has nothing to do with the concepts we've used to try to model the region (assuming those concepts were ever anything real). It may be nothing so much as a 7th century Berber tribal war. We just don't know.
One thing about the birth of a new world. The old world is always the last to know.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: Unrest in Egypt
i admit i don't know a thing.. .but i would bet they are sitting around the delta house bar asking why they didn't start some of these themselves a couple months ago. (and who knows, maybe they did
)
i admit i don't know a thing.. .but i would bet they are sitting around the delta house bar asking why they didn't start some of these themselves a couple months ago. (and who knows, maybe they did
)
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Unrest in Egypt
the thing is... we need to do what we can by whatever means to support liberalistic (for the region) pro-democracy groups in the region... its for the best to be honest... that's why a lot of people were still in favor of tyrants like Mubarak... the better of bad options. Secular beign-ish dictatorship is better than a militaristic one is better than a theocratic one.... but none are more favorable than representative democracy... but for the latter you need a societial assumption of tenents which are not a supply of guns away from collapsing.
I hope to all that these situations are able to stabilize enough so that we can support (with $$$ if it comes to it) secular democratic groups in those locations.... but... unfortunately
but unfortunately, the american liberals and the european multi-culturals have made common ground with the Muslim Brotherhood... the MB know that if you show a polite urban quasi-intellectual face to your mission the anti-nationalists in a particular country will take you in and make common cause... they're allies... and likewise they will not ally with secularists and liberals. The MB has done this in Europe with the Euro-left... CAIR has done the same in the US with the progressives... at the expense of the liberalistic movements within Islam and Arab culture... as much as they exist.
Its rather depressing, in the end. The Muslim Brotherhood have become incredibly well organized and well capitalized ($$$)... they can move more swiftly than any nation-borne democratic-secularist group because the democratic-secularists in the west have sided with the MB. The MB is an international movement... I doubt that any Egyptian liberal group would go the same way.
As for the MB... It all goes back to Sayyed Qtub for me... a man who found 1948 Greeley, CO so licentious that it ****s western culture in the eyes of the MB through today. They make a good western face when not talking about Islam directly... but when they are on the subject of Islam and amongst friends they go to a really dark place... but people like them because they speak the language of the western intellectuals. People see it as an anti-US-colonial hegemonic group to take out one of those tyrants we're evily supporting.... but that's because they want the US to not be supporting such evil tyrants with dark methods... not realizing that they effectively support a group with equally dark intentions despite being cloaked under the banner of righteous oppression.
I hope for the best... but I don't expect it.
the thing is... we need to do what we can by whatever means to support liberalistic (for the region) pro-democracy groups in the region... its for the best to be honest... that's why a lot of people were still in favor of tyrants like Mubarak... the better of bad options. Secular beign-ish dictatorship is better than a militaristic one is better than a theocratic one.... but none are more favorable than representative democracy... but for the latter you need a societial assumption of tenents which are not a supply of guns away from collapsing.
I hope to all that these situations are able to stabilize enough so that we can support (with $$$ if it comes to it) secular democratic groups in those locations.... but... unfortunately
but unfortunately, the american liberals and the european multi-culturals have made common ground with the Muslim Brotherhood... the MB know that if you show a polite urban quasi-intellectual face to your mission the anti-nationalists in a particular country will take you in and make common cause... they're allies... and likewise they will not ally with secularists and liberals. The MB has done this in Europe with the Euro-left... CAIR has done the same in the US with the progressives... at the expense of the liberalistic movements within Islam and Arab culture... as much as they exist.
Its rather depressing, in the end. The Muslim Brotherhood have become incredibly well organized and well capitalized ($$$)... they can move more swiftly than any nation-borne democratic-secularist group because the democratic-secularists in the west have sided with the MB. The MB is an international movement... I doubt that any Egyptian liberal group would go the same way.
As for the MB... It all goes back to Sayyed Qtub for me... a man who found 1948 Greeley, CO so licentious that it ****s western culture in the eyes of the MB through today. They make a good western face when not talking about Islam directly... but when they are on the subject of Islam and amongst friends they go to a really dark place... but people like them because they speak the language of the western intellectuals. People see it as an anti-US-colonial hegemonic group to take out one of those tyrants we're evily supporting.... but that's because they want the US to not be supporting such evil tyrants with dark methods... not realizing that they effectively support a group with equally dark intentions despite being cloaked under the banner of righteous oppression.
I hope for the best... but I don't expect it.
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Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
"This could be the greatest night of our lives, and you're going to make it the worst."
i admit i don't know a thing.. .but i would bet they are sitting around the delta house bar asking why they didn't start some of these themselves a couple months ago. (and who knows, maybe they did
"This could be the greatest night of our lives, and you're going to make it the worst."
JF_Gophers
2147483647
Re: Unrest in Egypt
I think the US should stop worrying about the Middle East all together. If they want to kill each other and their people, let them. We can always go back once everyone is gone.
Drill for oil at home if that's what you need. It's time to be a bit more self sufficient.
Stop supporting Israel. Get our military out of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. as soon as possible.
Stop sending Aid and weapons to dictators.
Let some other country be the worlds enforcer for awhile.
I think the US should stop worrying about the Middle East all together. If they want to kill each other and their people, let them. We can always go back once everyone is gone.
Drill for oil at home if that's what you need. It's time to be a bit more self sufficient.
Stop supporting Israel. Get our military out of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. as soon as possible.
Stop sending Aid and weapons to dictators.
Let some other country be the worlds enforcer for awhile.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Unrest in Egypt
Anti-government, anti-corruption protests across Iraq today. Riot police are under orders to act with restraint but they have water cannon and there are reports of live rounds being used. Calls for a million man march in a "day of rage" in Baghdad. The government is accusing the central figures of being AQ and Baathists. The government has also promised to create government jobs. The Green Zone is now sealed off to protect the politicians and the US presence, and there is very embarrassing symbolism that on the same bridge that Iraqis celebrated "liberation" after the US invasion the police have now stopped them and ordered them back to stop what appears to be a peaceful protest.
There are also clashes between rival pro- and anti-democracy protesters in Yemen today. 1848 continues apace.
Anti-government, anti-corruption protests across Iraq today. Riot police are under orders to act with restraint but they have water cannon and there are reports of live rounds being used. Calls for a million man march in a "day of rage" in Baghdad. The government is accusing the central figures of being AQ and Baathists. The government has also promised to create government jobs. The Green Zone is now sealed off to protect the politicians and the US presence, and there is very embarrassing symbolism that on the same bridge that Iraqis celebrated "liberation" after the US invasion the police have now stopped them and ordered them back to stop what appears to be a peaceful protest.
There are also clashes between rival pro- and anti-democracy protesters in Yemen today. 1848 continues apace.
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P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Unrest in Egypt
We don't have enough oil/coal etc domestically to support the American lifestyle. Following this example would require the US to drastically change. Communist!
Anti-Semite! The Jews have to retain control of a mountain or we'll never get Ruptured home! Heathen!
Stopping the sale of arms to dictators would crush American businesses and cost Americans jobs. Socialist!
Why do you hate America?