Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
"UNH’s Season Draws to a Close; Merrimack Wins Game Three 2-1"
by Parker Wheeler
"UNH’s Season Draws to a Close; Merrimack Wins Game Three 2-1"
by Parker Wheeler
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UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
- Thread starter Chuck Murray
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Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
With respect to my underlining in your quote above. After the painful Anaheim loss a friend said something like ....
"Boy, UNH really needed to win that game." I remember asking what he meant and he said something like .... "So the coaches can stop playing not to lose in tight situations - and transferring the attitude to the players." Ahaheim was not the beginning of that atmosphere but perhaps it punctuated, exacerbated, and helped maintain a certain atitude.
If change can't come from within ....then there is only one other alternative .... it has to come from without.
As Watcher and others have indicated .... an increase in skill level will help .... but not if the skill is stifled by playing with fear of .... "not making a mistake." And yes, certain players have been somewhat immune to this mantra .... I am sure most of us can name them .... and they carried the team to some good years. I truly admire and thank them for that.
With respect to my underlining in your quote above. After the painful Anaheim loss a friend said something like ....
"Boy, UNH really needed to win that game." I remember asking what he meant and he said something like .... "So the coaches can stop playing not to lose in tight situations - and transferring the attitude to the players." Ahaheim was not the beginning of that atmosphere but perhaps it punctuated, exacerbated, and helped maintain a certain atitude.
If change can't come from within ....then there is only one other alternative .... it has to come from without.
As Watcher and others have indicated .... an increase in skill level will help .... but not if the skill is stifled by playing with fear of .... "not making a mistake." And yes, certain players have been somewhat immune to this mantra .... I am sure most of us can name them .... and they carried the team to some good years. I truly admire and thank them for that.
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
USA Hockey Rule 404
(a) A “MISCONDUCT” penalty involves the removal of a player, other than a goalkeeper, from the game for a period of 10 minutes with immediate substitution taking place on ice. A player whose misconduct penalty has expired shall remain on the penalty bench until the next stoppage of play.
...
In the case where a player receives a major plus misconduct or game misconduct penalty, unless immediate substitution is allowed under the coincidental major penalty rule 403(c), the penalized team shall place a substitute player on the penalty bench immediately (for Youth, Girls’ and High School Classifications) or before the penalty expires (for Adult Classifications). No other replacement for the penalized player shall be permitted to enter the game except from the penalty bench upon expiration of the penalty.
For violation of this rule a bench minor penalty for illegal substitution shall be imposed.
USA Hockey Rule 404
(a) A “MISCONDUCT” penalty involves the removal of a player, other than a goalkeeper, from the game for a period of 10 minutes with immediate substitution taking place on ice. A player whose misconduct penalty has expired shall remain on the penalty bench until the next stoppage of play.
...
In the case where a player receives a major plus misconduct or game misconduct penalty, unless immediate substitution is allowed under the coincidental major penalty rule 403(c), the penalized team shall place a substitute player on the penalty bench immediately (for Youth, Girls’ and High School Classifications) or before the penalty expires (for Adult Classifications). No other replacement for the penalized player shall be permitted to enter the game except from the penalty bench upon expiration of the penalty.
For violation of this rule a bench minor penalty for illegal substitution shall be imposed.
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
On paper a decent team, but this year's team was decent on paper and should have been able to beat a couple of weaker teams, like Merrimack. Yet, they only really beat Maine, and went 3-14-2 down the stretch as they got accustomed to the system. That suggests its not just the on-ice talent that must be upgraded. Perhaps Marty needs to extend Umile and allow a longer transition, and also hire a couple of additonal Umile friends to help with the transition.
On paper a decent team, but this year's team was decent on paper and should have been able to beat a couple of weaker teams, like Merrimack. Yet, they only really beat Maine, and went 3-14-2 down the stretch as they got accustomed to the system. That suggests its not just the on-ice talent that must be upgraded. Perhaps Marty needs to extend Umile and allow a longer transition, and also hire a couple of additonal Umile friends to help with the transition.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
'Watcher, would you mind clarifying something for me? I was at the game and thought that Chris Miller was sent to the box for this infraction...(the Cleland penalty)? Or was he in there for something else? We couldn't understand why he wasn't being let out of the box hence the sub that went in which led to the illegal substitution penalty.
Am I correct in saying that they didn't let Miller back onto the ice until the next stoppage of play,(as per the rule above) which led to UNH putting someone else out on the ice? It doesn't matter of course now but I want to get it straight in my head about what actually transpired. As an official (and I have NO clue about how ice hockey works) I try to use 'preventive umpiring'. But this is D1 hockey and I guess...one needs to know the rules going in. Doesn't matter, lessons learned eh?? Too little, too late all season long and it caught us in the end, as expected.
'Watcher, would you mind clarifying something for me? I was at the game and thought that Chris Miller was sent to the box for this infraction...(the Cleland penalty)? Or was he in there for something else? We couldn't understand why he wasn't being let out of the box hence the sub that went in which led to the illegal substitution penalty.
Am I correct in saying that they didn't let Miller back onto the ice until the next stoppage of play,(as per the rule above) which led to UNH putting someone else out on the ice? It doesn't matter of course now but I want to get it straight in my head about what actually transpired. As an official (and I have NO clue about how ice hockey works) I try to use 'preventive umpiring'. But this is D1 hockey and I guess...one needs to know the rules going in. Doesn't matter, lessons learned eh?? Too little, too late all season long and it caught us in the end, as expected.
Last edited:
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Miller was serving the 5. I believe someone also has to serve the 10 minute misconduct. So while the 5 minute penalty expired, the penalty keeper needs a body there for the 10. That means Miller can't be let out.
Miller was serving the 5. I believe someone also has to serve the 10 minute misconduct. So while the 5 minute penalty expired, the penalty keeper needs a body there for the 10. That means Miller can't be let out.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
You know, when you are in it, going to these games like we did, we got so numb to the actual record. Talk about falling asleep at the wheel...drive home safely, indeed.
Morning after blues.
You know, when you are in it, going to these games like we did, we got so numb to the actual record. Talk about falling asleep at the wheel...drive home safely, indeed.
Morning after blues.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
OK...that makes sense. But like Dan said..you'd think that could be explained to the bench. Yes, they should know the rules, but would it have killed them (the officials) to say something about what's up with it? And, also, it's not the first time (as Dan said) that we have been in this situation before with Eiserman, what, he was ejected twice this season? Whatever. Venting to the wind.
OK...that makes sense. But like Dan said..you'd think that could be explained to the bench. Yes, they should know the rules, but would it have killed them (the officials) to say something about what's up with it? And, also, it's not the first time (as Dan said) that we have been in this situation before with Eiserman, what, he was ejected twice this season? Whatever. Venting to the wind.
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Blowing out ME at the VWA helped as well. HEA standings page is UuuuG-ly.You know, when you are in it, going to these games like we did, we got so numb to the actual record. Talk about falling asleep at the wheel...drive home safely, indeed.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
I'm not ready to look at that yet...sigh.
Maybe...tomorrow.
I'm not ready to look at that yet...sigh.
Maybe...tomorrow.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
So what you're saying is the UNH braintrust had almost five (5) minutes to realize they needed another player in the box so that Miller could come out legally in the flow of play upon expiration of the initial major, right?
I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill here - the better team won, the lesser team lost, and there were no goals during this passage of time (and UNH hasn't exactly been lighting it up at even strength) - but I can't see guys like York or Parker (or Leaman or Bazin) not knowing this. It does make you/your staff look disengaged at best, ignorant at worst. Admittedly it's not a common scenario but for someone who's literally coached over a thousand games at this level ... it's something you've gotta know. It's your job, and you are very well-paid to know this stuff cold. And you didn't. The emperor had no clothes for a few minutes.
On the other hand ... it would seem to me that the officiating staff kind of let Umile wander into this situation, and pulled a "gotcha" on him when Miller left the box. I wasn't there, so I don't know how many stoppages took place after the penalties were assessed. You'd think one of the on-ice officials would have extended a courtesy skate-by during a stoppage to perhaps remind the UNH staff that they're down a player in the box, and hey, it might be a good idea to send someone else over before Miller was due to leave? Or alternatively, the off-ice penalty box official could have refused to let Miller exit until the next stoppage after the major expired? In the latter's defense, I guess he could have easily assumed that Umile meant for Miller to serve both the major AND the misconduct?
Which of course leads to the possibility that *maybe* Coach Umile DID mean for Miller to serve both, but Miller didn't get the memo, and now Coach doesn't want to throw an inexperienced frosh under the bus needlessly?
Ultimately, it's the coaching staff's fault, no question ... they have to know the rule, and if they do know the rule (and Miller was going to serve both penalties), then it's their job to explain it to the player clearly to avoid this happening.
I just wonder if another officiating crew had this scenario with Coach York or someone else who is as highly respected ... they wouldn't have called this to the coach's attention in advance.
Not enough as a stand-alone incident to warrant dismissal of the coach and/or his staff, as that would be incredibly harsh. But another in a long line of indicators that engagement in the job may be ebbing, and respect for the coaching staff in neutral quarters isn't what you might otherwise think it should be at this stage. Just sayin', and JMHO.
So what you're saying is the UNH braintrust had almost five (5) minutes to realize they needed another player in the box so that Miller could come out legally in the flow of play upon expiration of the initial major, right?
I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill here - the better team won, the lesser team lost, and there were no goals during this passage of time (and UNH hasn't exactly been lighting it up at even strength) - but I can't see guys like York or Parker (or Leaman or Bazin) not knowing this. It does make you/your staff look disengaged at best, ignorant at worst. Admittedly it's not a common scenario but for someone who's literally coached over a thousand games at this level ... it's something you've gotta know. It's your job, and you are very well-paid to know this stuff cold. And you didn't. The emperor had no clothes for a few minutes.
On the other hand ... it would seem to me that the officiating staff kind of let Umile wander into this situation, and pulled a "gotcha" on him when Miller left the box. I wasn't there, so I don't know how many stoppages took place after the penalties were assessed. You'd think one of the on-ice officials would have extended a courtesy skate-by during a stoppage to perhaps remind the UNH staff that they're down a player in the box, and hey, it might be a good idea to send someone else over before Miller was due to leave? Or alternatively, the off-ice penalty box official could have refused to let Miller exit until the next stoppage after the major expired? In the latter's defense, I guess he could have easily assumed that Umile meant for Miller to serve both the major AND the misconduct?
Which of course leads to the possibility that *maybe* Coach Umile DID mean for Miller to serve both, but Miller didn't get the memo, and now Coach doesn't want to throw an inexperienced frosh under the bus needlessly?
Ultimately, it's the coaching staff's fault, no question ... they have to know the rule, and if they do know the rule (and Miller was going to serve both penalties), then it's their job to explain it to the player clearly to avoid this happening.
I just wonder if another officiating crew had this scenario with Coach York or someone else who is as highly respected ... they wouldn't have called this to the coach's attention in advance.
Not enough as a stand-alone incident to warrant dismissal of the coach and/or his staff, as that would be incredibly harsh. But another in a long line of indicators that engagement in the job may be ebbing, and respect for the coaching staff in neutral quarters isn't what you might otherwise think it should be at this stage. Just sayin', and JMHO.
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Similar to a 2 minute penalty if no one went to the box or tried to leave after 1 minute?
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Can't see why this would've been an issue for the officials to have engaged in what we call 'preventative officiating'. You simply extend the courtesy. I'm not of course a D1 umpire but have called big college games where incredibly the coaches don't have a clue about the OT procedure or they just get so caught up they need alittle assistance in getting something straight. And I wouldn't doubt in the least that a coach like York would be extended that, and it would hardly be noticed. And while this is a bold statement to make, everyone here on this entire board knows it.
Just the same, no one here is saying the 'Cats lost the game and series because of this; you gotta play through adversity and sometimes, even the worst of calls and situations. We didn't know how to win when we had to, it killed us all season, and it ended last night. One of our captains said as much this morning in comments in the paper. Amen and good luck the rest of the way to everyone left in the HE tourney and beyond. Should be interesting.
So what you're saying is the UNH braintrust had almost five (5) minutes to realize they needed another player in the box so that Miller could come out legally in the flow of play upon expiration of the initial major, right?
I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill here - the better team won, the lesser team lost, and there were no goals during this passage of time (and UNH hasn't exactly been lighting it up at even strength) - but I can't see guys like York or Parker (or Leaman or Bazin) not knowing this. It does make you/your staff look disengaged at best, ignorant at worst. Admittedly it's not a common scenario but for someone who's literally coached over a thousand games at this level ... it's something you've gotta know. It's your job, and you are very well-paid to know this stuff cold. And you didn't. The emperor had no clothes for a few minutes.
On the other hand ... it would seem to me that the officiating staff kind of let Umile wander into this situation, and pulled a "gotcha" on him when Miller left the box. I wasn't there, so I don't know how many stoppages took place after the penalties were assessed. You'd think one of the on-ice officials would have extended a courtesy skate-by during a stoppage to perhaps remind the UNH staff that they're down a player in the box, and hey, it might be a good idea to send someone else over before Miller was due to leave? Or alternatively, the off-ice penalty box official could have refused to let Miller exit until the next stoppage after the major expired? In the latter's defense, I guess he could have easily assumed that Umile meant for Miller to serve both the major AND the misconduct?
Which of course leads to the possibility that *maybe* Coach Umile DID mean for Miller to serve both, but Miller didn't get the memo, and now Coach doesn't want to throw an inexperienced frosh under the bus needlessly?
Ultimately, it's the coaching staff's fault, no question ... they have to know the rule, and if they do know the rule (and Miller was going to serve both penalties), then it's their job to explain it to the player clearly to avoid this happening.
I just wonder if another officiating crew had this scenario with Coach York or someone else who is as highly respected ... they wouldn't have called this to the coach's attention in advance.
Not enough as a stand-alone incident to warrant dismissal of the coach and/or his staff, as that would be incredibly harsh. But another in a long line of indicators that engagement in the job may be ebbing, and respect for the coaching staff in neutral quarters isn't what you might otherwise think it should be at this stage. Just sayin', and JMHO.
Can't see why this would've been an issue for the officials to have engaged in what we call 'preventative officiating'. You simply extend the courtesy. I'm not of course a D1 umpire but have called big college games where incredibly the coaches don't have a clue about the OT procedure or they just get so caught up they need alittle assistance in getting something straight. And I wouldn't doubt in the least that a coach like York would be extended that, and it would hardly be noticed. And while this is a bold statement to make, everyone here on this entire board knows it.
Just the same, no one here is saying the 'Cats lost the game and series because of this; you gotta play through adversity and sometimes, even the worst of calls and situations. We didn't know how to win when we had to, it killed us all season, and it ended last night. One of our captains said as much this morning in comments in the paper. Amen and good luck the rest of the way to everyone left in the HE tourney and beyond. Should be interesting.
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Agree. It would be nice if the league issued a statement/clarification on this play.
Agree. It would be nice if the league issued a statement/clarification on this play.
Nick Papagiorgio
Holding court
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
I'm still a little confused about this situation but even knowing how bad officiating is in this league (which is something I refuse to relent on after years and years of witnessing things getting worse from a bad starting point), I find it hard to believe the mopes Hockey East trots out in stripes every week would not head over to the UNH bench and get this straightened out when the penalties all got assessed to avoid this mess.
I'm still a little confused about this situation but even knowing how bad officiating is in this league (which is something I refuse to relent on after years and years of witnessing things getting worse from a bad starting point), I find it hard to believe the mopes Hockey East trots out in stripes every week would not head over to the UNH bench and get this straightened out when the penalties all got assessed to avoid this mess.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
I love it that you can boil down my typical paragraph-long analysis into a single sentence.
On the other hand ... it would seem to me that the officiating staff kind of let Umile wander into this situation, and pulled a "gotcha" on him when Miller left the box. I wasn't there, so I don't know how many stoppages took place after the penalties were assessed. You'd think one of the on-ice officials would have extended a courtesy skate-by during a stoppage to perhaps remind the UNH staff that they're down a player in the box, and hey, it might be a good idea to send someone else over before Miller was due to leave? Or alternatively, the off-ice penalty box official could have refused to let Miller exit until the next stoppage after the major expired? In the latter's defense, I guess he could have easily assumed that Umile meant for Miller to serve both the major AND the misconduct?
...
I just wonder if another officiating crew had this scenario with Coach York or someone else who is as highly respected ... they wouldn't have called this to the coach's attention in advance.
I'll go stand in the corner now, and write one thousand - er, one dozen - er, once - "I will be more concise"
I love it that you can boil down my typical paragraph-long analysis into a single sentence.
On the other hand ... it would seem to me that the officiating staff kind of let Umile wander into this situation, and pulled a "gotcha" on him when Miller left the box. I wasn't there, so I don't know how many stoppages took place after the penalties were assessed. You'd think one of the on-ice officials would have extended a courtesy skate-by during a stoppage to perhaps remind the UNH staff that they're down a player in the box, and hey, it might be a good idea to send someone else over before Miller was due to leave? Or alternatively, the off-ice penalty box official could have refused to let Miller exit until the next stoppage after the major expired? In the latter's defense, I guess he could have easily assumed that Umile meant for Miller to serve both the major AND the misconduct?
...
I just wonder if another officiating crew had this scenario with Coach York or someone else who is as highly respected ... they wouldn't have called this to the coach's attention in advance.
I'll go stand in the corner now, and write one thousand - er, one dozen - er, once - "I will be more concise"
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
I tend to agree. In which case, Umile may very well have sent Miller over to serve both penalties, Miller didn't get the memo, and when he jumped out at the 5 minute mark, the officials knew he shouldn't be leaving early.
In which case Umile is covering for his player, and/or the penalty box official shouldn't have let him leave.
I tend to agree. In which case, Umile may very well have sent Miller over to serve both penalties, Miller didn't get the memo, and when he jumped out at the 5 minute mark, the officials knew he shouldn't be leaving early.
In which case Umile is covering for his player, and/or the penalty box official shouldn't have let him leave.
NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Not possible because the player must come out of the penalty box. So Miller is the only one who could come out after 5 mins.
Not possible because the player must come out of the penalty box. So Miller is the only one who could come out after 5 mins.
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Three) - Living in Interesting Times
Dan, I never think of you as one who with unbridled optimism. And looking at this roster, frankly, I don't know where it comes from. The two biggest problems for this year's team were lack of team speed and the inability to get the puck out of the defensive zone. Looking at your projected first line, no speed there, and there is none returning on your projected third and fourth lines. On the back end, where we have had real problems for the last two years, I just don't see things getting that much better. Unless either Wyse and Nonis are the second coming of Garrett Stafford, it's going to be the same thing as this year. I do agree on the goaltending, although I would say that after this season, Tirone, as much as I dislike his style, deserves to have a leg up.
I'll use the analogy of losing weight. It takes a long time to become a fat pig. It takes a lot of time gorging yourself on pizza, beer and subs to gain that substantial waistline. It takes just as long to take it off and get back in shape. Just like you and your tummy (not literally of course), UNH has gotten themselves in this mess over a period of years and it is going to take awhile to get out of it. Looking at it objectively, the only positives are, first, that 3 of those 4 senior forwards plus Quast are gone and, second, that Vela, Nazarian and, perhaps, Eiserman appear to have taken their games to another level. But we need more than a few guys stepping up if the team is going to improve.
I always go back to those Kullen years of the late 80's as a template. The seeds of UNH's demise back then started as early as the 1984 and 1985 recruiting classes and did not start to turn around until 1987 and 1988. Five wins in 1986 turned into a .500 record and a Hockey East semi-final in 1990. That's four years. People have told me it is more difficult to recruit than it was back then, particularly when there is a lame duck coach. Perhaps, but recruits were choosing UNH back then despite the fact that Bob Kullen was seriously ill. Going against my better nature, I choose to be optimistic because of this.
Dan, I never think of you as one who with unbridled optimism. And looking at this roster, frankly, I don't know where it comes from. The two biggest problems for this year's team were lack of team speed and the inability to get the puck out of the defensive zone. Looking at your projected first line, no speed there, and there is none returning on your projected third and fourth lines. On the back end, where we have had real problems for the last two years, I just don't see things getting that much better. Unless either Wyse and Nonis are the second coming of Garrett Stafford, it's going to be the same thing as this year. I do agree on the goaltending, although I would say that after this season, Tirone, as much as I dislike his style, deserves to have a leg up.
I'll use the analogy of losing weight. It takes a long time to become a fat pig. It takes a lot of time gorging yourself on pizza, beer and subs to gain that substantial waistline. It takes just as long to take it off and get back in shape. Just like you and your tummy (not literally of course), UNH has gotten themselves in this mess over a period of years and it is going to take awhile to get out of it. Looking at it objectively, the only positives are, first, that 3 of those 4 senior forwards plus Quast are gone and, second, that Vela, Nazarian and, perhaps, Eiserman appear to have taken their games to another level. But we need more than a few guys stepping up if the team is going to improve.
I always go back to those Kullen years of the late 80's as a template. The seeds of UNH's demise back then started as early as the 1984 and 1985 recruiting classes and did not start to turn around until 1987 and 1988. Five wins in 1986 turned into a .500 record and a Hockey East semi-final in 1990. That's four years. People have told me it is more difficult to recruit than it was back then, particularly when there is a lame duck coach. Perhaps, but recruits were choosing UNH back then despite the fact that Bob Kullen was seriously ill. Going against my better nature, I choose to be optimistic because of this.
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