UNH Men’s Hockey 22-23: the start of something new, or more of the same?

[Snively65]

The short answer to your question? YES. I do expect him to do as good a job. We are talking about a DI NCAA hockey program. The underlying issue at UNH IS THE COACH. Not the ice, not the dated locker rooms, not the lack of fancy player suites. Sure, I'd agree to attract someone like Nate Leaman away from a program like PC who pays twice the money (or whatever that amount is) is a challenge, but, regardless of who the coach is, they are either doing the job to bring in quality players, and to coach them to do what they need to do, should not change regardless of the paycheck. Period. Don't sell your program short...you got a coach now who seems to get it. No telling how long he's gonna last, but for now, he's there. Same goes for UVM.

Others may see this differently. (oh, and even in my limited experience with this stuff, I do understand the landscape of college hockey has changed so I don't need a lesson on that).

Excellent post! And I am not just saying that.

 

[Snively65]

UNH of course! No, did not attend but I did burn some sage prior to the start on the directive of Sonar... At the banquet that season, DU said "that game was weird". Yeah, sure was. Significance? It was the last HE championship game UNH played in? We did make it to the Garden the following season. Also, CDS last season with the 'Cats? TvR was injured and did not play/ending his tenure with the 'Cats soon after? Kevin Goumas' last stand (haha had to throw that in) I still have the Concord Monitor newspaper story from that game..discusses TvR's departure as well as the loss.

Trifecta!

And, Felger added the last winning season part.

 

[Felger]

Trifecta!

And, Felger added the last winning season part.

It was eight and a half years ago but it seems like forever.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Delta,
What is that "better position if terminated now" idea you referenced. My guesses and hopes have been way off (underestimated Marty's corruption, my mistake). Can you at least give me any hope to continue to follow the team, that things will change before 2024?

Drew,
the problem has always been twofold. The first is resources to compete with the top end schools. The second, which becomes the most important given item 1, is hiring a competent coach. When hired, even the most ardent supporters were befuddled:

Greg A replied to UNH Wildcats TD Garden and Beyond 2015
in Men's Division I
06-10-2015, 01:03 PM
Re: UNH Wildcats TD Garden and Beyond 2015

Originally posted by Felger View Post
"However, Hartford Courant scribe Mike Anthony added an interesting twist to the plot Wednesday morning, reporting that Souza would be the head coach in waiting at UNH. It has bee speculated that longtime Wildcat bench boss Dick Umile would be retiring after the 2016-17 season."

http://sportsfire.net/souza-leaves-uconn-for-unh/
I can't believe that this is true, that when the hiring of Souza is announced, it will also be announced that Umile will be retiring the year after next, to be replaced with someone with a record that is as thin as Souza's is. Mind you, I think Mike is a great guy, at least he was in all the interactions I had with him back when he was a player. And I do think he is an earnest, hard working, up-and-comer. But to think that he would be anointed the new coach would be mind boggling to me. It would lead me to ask Marty Scarano, what happened to the notion that you would only hire someone with Division 1 head coach experience? If Umile was going to designate someone as his successor, why wouldn't it be the man who has been his chief recruiter for the last 12 years rather than someone who is just establishing himself. Just doesn't make any sense.

Souza had no achievements when hired. Compare that to Maine, who is paying Barr a bit less than Souza's 240, but he has credibility from having (A) coached more than 4 years (which was Souza's resume), (B) at higher levels (Souza was at doormat Brown and U.Conn when it was in the Atlantic Hockey Association), and (C) success. Souza's teams were always way under .500, and his recruiting was nothing noteworthy. Barr, as you know, won 2 NCAA Championships.

If you wrote the Mike Souza story, its a clusterf of incompetence, but under the ambit of a rich uncle who forces him upon everyone else. Failing upwards. The idea of a 6 year sub-.500 record warrants a two year extension is astounding.

But when you fail, there's always an excuse to offer -- "it's the rink"

In the end its having a plan and credibility. Souza had neither. Every other new coach gets 10 recruits in the first 5 months -- a plan of "I like this kid, and now that I can buy the groceries, I'm taking him."
Barr did this, though the fruits are not yet on campus.
Souza sat on his but the first 8 months, bringing in two kids from his neighborhood.
His press conference was only "thanks Dick, I love Umile, the U has been so good to me." Nothing inspiring to other recruits. No vision. And with that lack of credibility, even if you get one recruit, you have to get them to believe that you will surround them with others -- that they will not get Gildoned.

 

[Darius]

"I know what you're thinking, 'cause right now I'm thinking the same thing. Actually, I've been thinking it ever since I got here: Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"

 

[deltabravo62]

Delta,
What is that "better position if terminated now" idea you referenced. My guesses and hopes have been way off (underestimated Marty's corruption, my mistake). Can you at least give me any hope to continue to follow the team, that things will change before 2024?

Drew,
the problem has always been twofold. The first is resources to compete with the top end schools. The second, which becomes the most important given item 1, is hiring a competent coach. When hired, even the most ardent supporters were befuddled:



Souza had no achievements when hired. Compare that to Maine, who is paying Barr a bit less than Souza's 240, but he has credibility from having (A) coached more than 4 years (which was Souza's resume), (B) at higher levels (Souza was at doormat Brown and U.Conn when it was in the Atlantic Hockey Association), and (C) success. Souza's teams were always way under .500, and his recruiting was nothing noteworthy. Barr, as you know, won 2 NCAA Championships.

If you wrote the Mike Souza story, its a clusterf of incompetence, but under the ambit of a rich uncle who forces him upon everyone else. Failing upwards. The idea of a 6 year sub-.500 record warrants a two year extension is astounding.

But when you fail, there's always an excuse to offer -- "it's the rink"

In the end its having a plan and credibility. Souza had neither. Every other new coach gets 10 recruits in the first 5 months -- a plan of "I like this kid, and now that I can buy the groceries, I'm taking him."
Barr did this, though the fruits are not yet on campus.
Souza sat on his but the first 8 months, bringing in two kids from his neighborhood.
His press conference was only "thanks Dick, I love Umile, the U has been so good to me." Nothing inspiring to other recruits. No vision. And with that lack of credibility, even if you get one recruit, you have to get them to believe that you will surround them with others -- that they will not get Gildoned.

Buyout is 12 months salary from date of notice to terminate. So the number is the same, the savings would be the months between 12 months from now and end of contract (80,000 by my calculations)

 

[Chuck Murray]

I don't think Souza would be a better coach if he was paid more, but I do think a coach's salary is a bellwether for a school/program's overall resources. If UNH could pay him 3 or 4x more than he makes now they would have resources for other things that would make a difference.

Does it occur to you that maybe the higher-paid coaches are paid highly because of their history of success?

FWIW Leaman makes a fraction of what PC's Basketball HC Ed Cooley makes, because PC is a Hoops school and can bang out a much bigger home arena on a regular basis (the "Ernie D Legacy" factor, see Gavitt, Dave) PLUS they do a decent job of being relevant in Big East/D-1 play.

UNH has had "the resources" to update the scoreboard(s), dealt with the ice-making equipment, AND most recently re-sized the sheet size itself.

We've kind of whittled down potential outside causes of the program's collapse via extended default analysis.

It's now just down to the competency of the folks in charge. All of the excuses have now been exhausted ...

-------------------

Mike Souza the Player built a reputation as a guy who shone the brightest when the stakes were the highest, and for that he should never have to worry about how he is perceived when he is on the UNH campus.

The only thing threatening that status is Mike Souza the Coach. And the deeper the hole gets dug, the more damage is done to his legacy as a player ... and that shouldn't be the case.

Dick Umile "got away with it" because he had a legacy of successful teams for nearly 25 years before things turned sour. And "sour" for Umile was "par for the course" in Souza's HC run at UNH. MS7 doesn't have that good will to burn off.

Which is why Coach Souza must resign. The turnaround isn't coming any time soon, this has not been an epic run of bad "puck luck", it's a bad team that I said would only be saved from a dead last finish this season IF the frosh goalie was a miracle worker. That hasn't happened either. To continue is only to cause more damage to what's left of your legacy as a player, and extends your alma mater's recovery time to D-1 relevance. Do the right thing, please ...

 

[Dan]

Is it fair to expect Souza to do as good of a job as Leaman when he is paid 1/4 as much? None of us like it but Maine, UNH, and UVM are the ***** teams in hockey east now. You can hire and fire coaches until the cows come home but that won’t change the underlying issues.

With all due respect, I don't enjoy reading this opinion on the Maine threads (as much as I would enjoy seeing that program wallow in mediocrity eternally) - please don't come here and tell us the limits of what you think we deserve and can expect. Your opinion seems to extend from your need to rationalize the performance of the last era of Maine Hockey. Do what you need to do, but don't kid yourself that its anything more than excuse making for failed administrations/staffs...

Souza is a failure and Gendron was failing. It has NOTHING to do with their salary or school resources, and everything to do with their ability. There are MANY coaches who would take the same or less salary than Souza and do a far better job - that cannot honestly be up for debate. The question is whether the UNH administration cares enough - or would put enough into the process - to find the right candidate.

You are an outlier in your opinion of Barr - the top assistant coach candidate in the country, a proven winner and recruiter, who Maine was able to attract while both in the dumps and offering a low salary/resource budget. That alone proves your financial theories of college hockey to be irrelevant. He may or may not win, but he refuses to make excuses and has shown he'll put his head through a wall to try. That is FAR more than can be said for Souza at UNH - so spare me...

Leaman didn't become Leaman when he got paid. He performed and earned his salary. Salary at UM - or UNH - is only a problem (as noted above) when it becomes time to KEEP a head coach. At that point, either school can pony up or make a second good hire. It's not rocket science. The Wildcats just spent millions to shrink the width of their rink - resources aren't a problem at UNH. Resource management may be an issue; accountability certainly is...

Every time a fanbase repeats this type of garbage they create cover for coaches and administrations, doing harm to the program they claim to support.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Buyout is 12 months salary from date of notice to terminate. So the number is the same, the savings would be the months between 12 months from now and end of contract (80,000 by my calculations)

Wow. If that is true, then in theory they would only be on the hook through November 2023, not April 2024. In theory, the "double paying" of a real coach would be less than a year (May 2023 to November 2023). I'm all on board with Chuck's plan to send the notice to terminate now. Is notice to terminate defined in the contract, and does that equate to termination? Or is there a gap between the notice and the actual termination?

 

[deltabravo62]

Wow. If that is true, then in theory they would only be on the hook through November 2023, not April 2024. In theory, the "double paying" of a real coach would be less than a year (May 2023 to November 2023). I'm all on board with Chuck's plan to send the notice to terminate now. Is notice to terminate defined in the contract, and does that equate to termination? Or is there a gap between the notice and the actual termination?

This is correct. The notice to terminate is required 30 days prior in writing. So doing it today would effectively end his tenure at end of this year and end their payment obligations as of 12/2023. Slight mistake on my first post there

 

[HockeyRef]

Does it occur to you that maybe the higher-paid coaches are paid highly because of their history of success?

FWIW Leaman makes a fraction of what PC's Basketball HC Ed Cooley makes, because PC is a Hoops school and can bang out a much bigger home arena on a regular basis (the "Ernie D Legacy" factor, see Gavitt, Dave) PLUS they do a decent job of being relevant in Big East/D-1 play.

UNH has had "the resources" to update the scoreboard(s), dealt with the ice-making equipment, AND most recently re-sized the sheet size itself.

We've kind of whittled down potential outside causes of the program's collapse via extended default analysis.

It's now just down to the competency of the folks in charge. All of the excuses have now been exhausted ...

-------------------

Mike Souza the Player built a reputation as a guy who shone the brightest when the stakes were the highest, and for that he should never have to worry about how he is perceived when he is on the UNH campus.

The only thing threatening that status is Mike Souza the Coach. And the deeper the hole gets dug, the more damage is done to his legacy as a player ... and that shouldn't be the case.
got away with it" because he had a legacy of successful teams for nearly 25 years before things turned sour. And "sour" for Umile was "par for the course" in Souza's HC run at UNH. MS7 doesn't have that good will to burn off.

Which is why Coach Souza must resign. The turnaround isn't coming any time soon, this has not been an epic run of bad "puck luck", it's a bad team that I said would only be saved from a dead last finish this season IF the frosh goalie was a miracle worker. That hasn't happened either. To continue is only to cause more damage to what's left of your legacy as a player, and extends your alma mater's recovery time to D-1 relevance. Do the right thing, please ...

Don't forget the weight room, locker room and player lounges! Once those are in, we can REALLY get this train (or horse, pick your vehicle) moving! (smiley and a wink)

 

[norbert]

Last night Connor Hellebuyck shut out the reigning Stanley Cup holders 5-0.

trivia questions: 1) what team and where did Hellebuyck shut out 4-0 on 22 March 2014? 2) did anyone here see that game in person? 3) what was the significance of that game to us?

It was UNH at the Garden in the semi-finals. I was there with the family behind the goal. As for significance, you could say it was the last time UNH was in the finals.

 

[NCAA watcher]

This is correct. The notice to terminate is required 30 days prior in writing. So doing it today would effectively end his tenure at end of this year and end their payment obligations as of 12/2023. Slight mistake on my first post there

We can only pray that this notice was given, and there is some understanding in place to restructure it-- that he will finish the year, but be paid to November. Again, grasping at straws, but maybe his is what prompted his comments last week that he will continue to work to fix this.

UNH Head Coach Mike Souza after the loss last night: “I understand that the expectation is to win and I’m not going to sit here and tell you that things are great, they’re not. I want them to be and as long as I’m the coach I’m going to work my ass off”

My hopes have been off so far, so I'm probably wrong on this as well, but hope springs eternal - otherwise we would not survive the Souza debacle.

 

[HockeyRef]

It was UNH at the Garden in the finals. I was there with the family behind the goal. As for significance, you could say it was the last time UNH was in the finals.

Fixed your post we beat PC in the semis. Which was amazing, I might add, can still see Leaman walking off looking pissed, 3-1 (Goumas with 2, Agosta with the other, CDS in goal) UML had our number from the 2013 Regional going forward in any other HE playoffs since tho we have been competitive with them regular season...

 

[deltabravo62]

We can only pray that this notice was given, and there is some understanding in place to restructure it-- that he will finish the year, but be paid to November. Again, grasping at straws, but maybe his is what prompted his comments last week that he will continue to work to fix this.



My hopes have been off so far, so I'm probably wrong on this as well, but hope springs eternal - otherwise we would not survive the Souza debacle.

Personally I feel we are in this through the full term of the contract. Unless he breaks one of the "for cause" termination clauses in his contract I don't think they look to back out early. Maybe we should start taking up collections at the door of the Whitt to donate the buyout...

 

[NCAA watcher]

I guess I owe a bunch of drinks to people.
We can only dream of Foster's Headline: "New gofundme collection raises over $3 million to buy out coach Souza."

 

[Felger]

Again, grasping at straws, but maybe this is what prompted his comments last week that he will continue to work to fix this.

Truthfully, that was my initial reacton when I read the quote. But I also know that we tend to parse comments too much these days.

 

[HockeyRef]

What I wonder outloud about is...how do the 'big name' sponsors feel about the state of the program?? Bugs me that STH's can't park ever in the alumni center, as this is totally reserved for these people who are the big donors, etc. Regardless...surely they are feeling the economics of the whole thing; the ROI? No idea and doubt we'll ever know, but if they break ground on the new locker rooms etc in the Spring, guess we know the answer...

 

[Darius]

Second, I assumed Marty was stupid and deferential, but this smacks of malice. Going out the door, saddling your successor with your mistake and handcuffing her from making her own decision.

Or...

Third, AD Rich is now mostly off the hook -- her hands are pretty much tied unless the outs in the contract provide some leeway.

...this. In a good way. Whether a decision has been made (doubtful) or not she will have time to evaluate for herself which sends a message that she is in charge, making her own carefully thought out not rash decisions.

President Dean, did you know of this? It's kind of sad to say the President should have watched the AD on his way out the door because he couldn't be trusted, but that's what it looks like now.

My guess is he knew and approved. See above.

...buyout clauses allowing the school to offset their payout if the coach finds a new job. Souza, at 240K, won't find that again, but might be able to find a job at 50, so the buyout would be reduced to 190K or so. Can they structure the new coach so the actual yearly cash flow is minimally impacted -- lower in 2023-24, then higher in subsequent years. Not the greatest way to entice competent coaches. Let's hope AD Rich negotiated enough of a budget to do the needed buyout. If they can waste millions on narrowing the rink to "help" the program, shouldn't the $200K buyout be money far better spent?

I would be stunned if there is any significant buyout. No way at >$99K.

And finally, this is on Souza, too. If he truly loves the University as he says, he should resign. But if this is all about money, then he'll hang on for every last cent.

Who wouldn't? He's in his prime earning years with two children. Nobility doesn't pay college tuition.

I wonder if AD Rich can help Souza see what's best by making it clear to Souza that he's never getting renewed after 2024, that the U will only minimally support him (is he contractually entitled to two assistants? If we're going to suck in 2023-24, maybe he should do it all because the U needs to save money for a real coach in 2024. And why recruit, if the players may well go elsewhere when the coaching change happens.)

I would like to think the AD and Coach are having frank, productive conversations. I doubt AD Rich would say "never" after 2024. What if by some miracle we are over 500 next season? Cutting off its nose to spite its face isn't a good look for future coaching candidates.

And if Mike Souza hangs on just for the money, I'm all for making it clear to him what the community thinks. My prior pleas for compassion toward him during the fait acompli last 3 months has changed once I saw this is not the end.

I'm all about civility. I know this doesn't apply to everyone especially here, but for many UNH, athletics and beyond, is a family.

And Scarano should never be permitted back on the campus without jeering at every moment. For all the talk about "loving the university," for him and Umile it was always about getting your's first at the expense of the University. Let's see if Souza is cut from the same cloth.

Marty accomplished a (((lot))) of good things during his tenure.

 

[Drew S.]

With all due respect, I don't enjoy reading this opinion on the Maine threads (as much as I would enjoy seeing that program wallow in mediocrity eternally) - please don't come here and tell us the limits of what you think we deserve and can expect. Your opinion seems to extend from your need to rationalize the performance of the last era of Maine Hockey. Do what you need to do, but don't kid yourself that its anything more than excuse making for failed administrations/staffs...

Souza is a failure and Gendron was failing. It has NOTHING to do with their salary or school resources, and everything to do with their ability. There are MANY coaches who would take the same or less salary than Souza and do a far better job - that cannot honestly be up for debate. The question is whether the UNH administration cares enough - or would put enough into the process - to find the right candidate.

You are an outlier in your opinion of Barr - the top assistant coach candidate in the country, a proven winner and recruiter, who Maine was able to attract while both in the dumps and offering a low salary/resource budget. That alone proves your financial theories of college hockey to be irrelevant. He may or may not win, but he refuses to make excuses and has shown he'll put his head through a wall to try. That is FAR more than can be said for Souza at UNH - so spare me...

Leaman didn't become Leaman when he got paid. He performed and earned his salary. Salary at UM - or UNH - is only a problem (as noted above) when it becomes time to KEEP a head coach. At that point, either school can pony up or make a second good hire. It's not rocket science. The Wildcats just spent millions to shrink the width of their rink - resources aren't a problem at UNH. Resource management may be an issue; accountability certainly is...

Every time a fanbase repeats this type of garbage they create cover for coaches and administrations, doing harm to the program they claim to support.

You deserve the moon, stars, and the sun but it doesn’t mean you are going to get them.

Contrary to your opinion on Maine I would love to see UNH be competitive again. Beyond helping Maine there is a decent chance once my kids get older we will attend UNH games and it would be nice to see them competitive.

I still think the jury is out on Barr. He’s only won 10 of approximately 50 games as head coach. My opinion, and certainly Watcher and others know more than me, is his recruiting has been a little underwhelming. The one real star he’s gotten is the brother of someone the prior regime got. I still think it’s a huge red flag three other schools passed on him especially when none of them hired superstars.

The last two times the job has been open for Maine the candidates(outside of Barr who definitely was decent) have been incredibly underwhelming. Perhaps you will have a different experience but I think it’s unlikely.

Upgrading the locker room, lounge, and weight room would definitely help but the budget for equipment, travel, and assistant coaches plays a big part as well. Doesn’t UNH overall also operate on kind of a bare bones budget? I think you and others are being unrealistic(same as Maine fans) but certainly respect you being able to have your own opinion.