Wealth of riches can work against you sometimes!
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UNH 2024/2025 Goldberg Edition
- Thread starter norbert
- Start date
Wealth of riches can work against you sometimes!
Another head scratcher!
After the Whistle
Member
Snively, not looking to ruffle feathers but what do and others have against this career forth liner? Perhaps we have different views on just what we value in a forth liner. This individual plays as effective defense as almost anyone on the team. He is always part of our PK and word is he has his teams respect as a player and leader. He has a good forecheck and back check. He is good along the boards and is effective getting the puck out of our defensive end. His scoring is very hard to understand, and yes most of us would hope he had 6-10 goals over these four years.
Who would you suggest replace him and his effective defense? Remind me of resent forth liners who have played better.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
My two cents ... it's been almost a decade since the debacle of the UNH players picking another 4th liner as an outright C (I believe Sweeney is an A?), and while I have far less of an issue with putting an A on a fourth liner than a C, I think the basic issue is that a fourth line A is someone who is pretty much guaranteed to dress for each and every game. Unless you have an exceptional bunch of players - and I'm thinking "Grind Line" in Detroit a generation ago, or the "Merlot Line" (?) in Boston when they won the Cup over a decade ago - the fourth line is usually the first place a head coach is looking to shake up a roster that's in a slump, so virtually guaranteeing a nightly slot to a fourth liner because of the A is counter to that loose principle? I can't speak to my B's example, but I know Kris Draper never got an A while centering the GL.
Otherwise, for many of us, the spectacle of MacDonald getting the C, and his "senior first checking line" getting WAY more ice time than they'd earned on the ice, while a guy like Warren Foegele was watching from the stands, and packing his bags shortly thereafter for Major Juniors and his long productive NHL career now well underway, is still probably a little too fresh in the minds of longer-time UNH posters on here. IIRC Mac was voted as C by his teammates due to his inspiring recovery from a grisly injury the prior season, which I described at the time as being a well-intentioned but ultimately immature decision by a bunch of kids/young adults. I'm not ever saying your C has to be your top scorer, or on your top defense pairing; I think the current bunch of guys has figured their C properly, and the designation of Sweeney as an A is therefore far less of an issue this season. There's probably someone else in this older group who arguably deserves an A more than Sweeney does, but you ask a fair question - if not him, then who else deserves it more? And if the senior leadership is OK with Sweeney, and it's not landing a kid like Conmy in the stands, with a ticket to Palookaville in his suitcase ... then I guess I'm OK with it, under these circumstances.
Patrick Foley was UNH's C for two years, and I don't think he was ever more than a 3rd liner, but he was the guy who cashed the physical checks his (very talented) teammates wrote.
Over to you, Snives (or anyone else who wants to take a crack at it) ...
While I agree with ATW and Chuck that player-elected captains and alternate captains get to dress for every game, I do not think that is a winning strategy, even if their total ice time is typically limited to less than 10 minutes per game. To revisit the 2015/2016 season (11-20-6), Collin MacDonald (6 goals and 5 assists in 70 games over four seasons), who had been elected captain by his teammates, scored one goal and zero assists from the “senior checking” third line in 19 games before suffering yet another season-ending injury, while sophomore Warren Foegele sat in the stands for all but five games, choosing to leave humiliated at the end of fall semester. MacDonald scored one goal and one assist in 15 games during his first season (2012/13), one goal and zero assists in 16 games during his second season (2013/14), and three goals and four assists in his injury-shortened 20 games during his high watermark third season (2014/15), when UNH went 19-19-2, their best record of the past decade until their breakout last season. Although there is not a Warren Foegele sitting in the stands this season, if I were head coach, I would still give the Windsor, Ontario, MacPherson twins more ice time on the fourth line to see what we have in them. I would be fine giving junior Skrastins and senior Lovett more time in the stands to make some ice time for the Ontario twins, who just might be able to help the alternate captain get his first career goal.
So, while I agree that the composition of the fourth line is not nearly as important as our portal transfer goalie, again, I think that the coaching staff should be looking to the future at the same time as going for some postseason presence this year. Finally, at least MacDonald managed 6 goals in 32 fewer career games and counting than this year’s alternate captain.
So, while I agree that the composition of the fourth line is not nearly as important as our portal transfer goalie, again, I think that the coaching staff should be looking to the future at the same time as going for some postseason presence this year. Finally, at least MacDonald managed 6 goals in 32 fewer career games and counting than this year’s alternate captain.
If people want to use the Warren Foegele debacle to tar and feather Connor Sweeney go for it. But at least get the facts straight. Foegele never "sat in the stands" so that the checking line could play. Foegele dressed for UNH in each of the first five games that season. By the time UNH played its sixth game, on Halloween, he was already gone.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Agree, and apologize for taking liberties with "in the stands" ... but the fact does remain Foegele (a prized recruit with NHL draftee status) was skating on bottom six forward assignments up to that point, and with the MacDonald/Smith/Gaudreault *juggernaut* soaking up way more time than any of them truly deserved, WF could see the writing on the wall. One would have to assume Foegele had received some assurances about his probable outlook for his ill-fated soph season to have come back in the first place, and while missing out (narrowly?) to Sr. Dan Correale as a left winger to pair with Poturalski and Kelleher was probably an early disappointment ... not getting regular time on a younger second line with the likes of Vela and Nazarian, and seeing any remaining time chipped away by the escalated roles of MSG (lol) was probably the last straw.
I do think it's pretty common knowledge that the rest of HE hung the Foegele thing on late stage Umile/early years MS7 as an example to many future recruits on how clueless UNH was at that stage of the game. In retrospect, that decision alone probably cost Umile from attaining his NRN we'd monitored so closely during his final years in charge.
The cover story was "homesick", which of course overlooked the facts that (1) he'd already spent a year in Durham at that point, and (2) signed up for another, before something apparently happened to change his calculus.
And here we are, nine-plus years later, and the kid has scored double digits in goals for the last seven NHL seasons, and has improved from a bottom six depth guy on playoff teams, to a top six guy on playoff teams, and a proven postseason scorer to boot. Foegele may be having his best season yet this year, and will likely score his 100th NHL RS goal before the end of this season. Not a bad alum to brag on ... if only UNH had put some faith in him, instead of in a bunch of sweathogs who notched a high water mark in the 'Coast, if that.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
OK so let me go back to Patrick Foley, the two year Captain (and IIRC a rare A as a soph too) when UNH won their two consecutive Hockey East tourney titles early in the century, and made it to the Frozen Four back-to-back as well. He's a kid who was recruited out of the USNDP not so much as a slick playmaker or scorer - something UNH had by the bushel back in those days - but as a big kid who could skate and do physical stuff that most of the UNH forwards lacked (we'll skip the Eddie Caron detour tonight), and someone who was already renowned for character. Umile was not always effusive in his praise for underclassmen - especially if they weren't paisan - but at one point during Foley's captaincy run, he talked about how Patrick "was the kind of guy you'd want in your foxhole in a skirmish". Turns out that Foley - who was UNH's policeman on the ice - did some D-1 coaching at Harvard and NU before deciding to do some real police work in Boston ...
Catching Up with the 'Cats: Patrick Foley - University of New Hampshire Athletics
You take a kid (more like a young man) like Foley, and put him on the 2015/2016 or the current UNH teams, and he would be a top six forward, probably like a slightly less-skilled Cy LeClerc. To compare him with MacDonald or Sweeney does Foley a huge disservice ... but if we compare Sweeney and MacDonald, it looks like Sweeney was deemed good enough to be playing regularly for the last two seasons, including with last year's winning squad, while MacDonald really never "made" it in his first two seasons, and made a modest 3rd year breakthrough before his injury. Instead of giving the kid one of the "Unsung Hero" awards for a brave comeback, his teammates probably caught the PC fever and overcompensated his contributions, not totally grasping the importance of experienced on-ice leadership. To the contrary, the current team put the C on Gagne (second straight season, right?) and I don't think it's a coincidence these have been UNH's best two seasons in a long while.
So if Sweeney has filled an important depth role for most of his career, I have no problem with him getting an A. Clearly he is respected and admired by his teammates, especially if they're trying to get him a goal (not important to me, but I suppose "admirable" if it doesn't mess up any important results). Long and short, it's hard to establish yourself as a legit team leader when you struggle to make the regular lineup, and of the three guys I've included in the discussion here, only MacDonald had never quite gotten there by his Soph season, which Sweeney did (and Foley did as a frosh).
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January is a huge opportunity for UNH, with six winnable games over three weekends, and with three games against BU over the other two weekends. Let's say UNH can get five wins out of six, or maybe 4-1-1, against the non-BU opponents. Squeaking out a 1-1-1 against BU will no doubt help the good ol' PWR, with either an overall 6-2-1 or 5-2-2 setting things up for a huge February. February, the graveyard of many a past UNH squad ... or not? Credit where credit is due, UNH is in a decent place (barring a poor Providence weekend), and it's all to play for in 2025. I'll revisit my "Top Four" RS prediction at the appropriate point, but if the season gets to Boston in March, I don't care what route they take ...
Thanks. I stand corrected and need to do a better job on my homework. And even more interesting to me now is that MacDonald got his lone goal (and point) of the 2015/16 season during those first five games when Foegele got his lone assist before getting out of Dodge.
As for Patrick Foley, can someone remind me why he missed the 2000/01 season before returning in 2001/02 for his sophomore season? Agree that he was not a prolific scorer but he did end up with 23 goals and 34 assists over his four seasons, not bad for a fourth liner.
As for my pre-season prediction of a second consecutive 20-win season, I can now see how difficult that will be without sweeping the nine games in January, as the February-March schedule looks brutal.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Not 100% certain, but I seem to recall it was a medically-induced redshirt season, Snives?
Jellsville USA
Registered User
Pretty sure Foley had knee surgery r/t to his high school football days. It is my understanding he wore braces during his Freshman season. Foley may not have been a first liner but he helped UNH to 2 Frozen fours and a Final!!
Spot on. According to an article in Seacoast Online, Dr. Bert Zarins repaired ACL’s in both knees that Pat Foley had injured in high school and as you note played with braces for both the U.S. Developmental Team and then his first year at UNH.
sterlippo1
New member
just a correction as you want accurate info on your UNH page. The poster said 7, there are only 6 so not a boast post. Good to see UNH improving again this year. Good luck going forward.
Robert Balin
New member
Happy New Year to everyone. UNH can finish their Non-conference games 8-1-1 with a sweep of Princeton this weekend, I wonder who Rich will be rooting for 
. They seem to be playing better on the road this year and are getting better balanced scoring. UNH recruit Sam Oliver has 30 goals in 35 games in the QMJHL A few of the recruits are making nice strides this year so i'll lay off Souza for a while.
. They seem to be playing better on the road this year and are getting better balanced scoring. UNH recruit Sam Oliver has 30 goals in 35 games in the QMJHL A few of the recruits are making nice strides this year so i'll lay off Souza for a while.Thank you for the correction. I didn't take your post in that context. I was merely pointing out that with 6 good players missing from the roster that obviously would weaken the team without them. Good luck moving forward to you guys as well.
Thank you for the correction. I didn't take your post in that context. I was merely pointing out that with 6 good players missing from the roster that obviously would weaken the team without them. Good luck moving forward to you guys as well.