UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I would personally agree with this. I don't think the talent level is an issue, nor even the amount of effort the guys give. I think the dump and chase is a problem, as is Gendron's general style. I remember I saw the team at Merrimack and sat right behind the bench, and he just looked like a spastic and had no general control of the situation. I think a new voice and a new style is needed, because I do think there is talent on the team.

I am in agreement with Mike and Kirby as it pertains to system. There are multiple strategies (dump and chase, no weak side on PK, no PP screener, etc. just to name a few) that have not worked and continue to not work and Red has no shown no willingness to modify scheme. Scheme should be created around skill and talent available, for example, I am still completely baffled why Red refuses to play Pat Shea at C where he has made is most significant impacts. Doherty is more impactful at LW but he has him C Shea.....? I hope the use of Holesinsky on the W Saturday was stamina related as he was returning from injury because I have no idea why you would take 50% of the ice away from the teams best creator. 7 blueliners in back to back nights better be due to injuries. The only team with a legit reason to do this in all of NCAA is BU who has 7 drafted blueliners.

I also think it is important to keep in mind expectations of a young team this season is not necessarily equal to expectations for next season and the season after as young players develop. Going into the season this team's ceiling was 6-7 and floor was 11. Through one month of action nothing has changed. If 10/11th than the hot seat is going to get really really hot. Finishing 7/8th and all Maine fans should be happy with the progress this season. Red can also be faulted for letting the dumpster fire burn itself out as opposed to putting the fire out when he took over. Red took the moral high ground and chose to honor all current and future scholarship offers at the time he took over the program. Any hopes of a quick turnaround were dashed with that decision. The frustration with rebuild time is directly related to that decision.

I watch a lot of junior hockey and the skill level of the past two recruiting classes are very good. Without any reasonable argument against, these two classes represent the two best back to back recruiting classes in Orono since 2007 & 2008. Guite & Co (Leach/Michaud) have done a tremendous job bringing in known talent (e.g., Pearson, Shea) and identifying and securing talent (Tralmaks, Sasson, etc.) prior to becoming a hot commodity. I have no idea what the ultimate fate of Gendron will be, but I do worry that with the program heading in the right direction a complete change of coaching staff would result in a complete cleaning out of the recruit locker, which is quite talented. As it sits right now we are 2 years into a 5 year run of high quality recruits that Maine hasn't seen in over a decade. Winning in college hockey is hard enough let alone rocking the boat every 4 or 5 years.

 

[ticapnews]

that's why they need to spend money on infrastructure... to maintain it

I think I read in the last UM budget briefing that over 50% of the buildings on campus will be over 50 years old by next year. Happy Maintenance!

 

[ticapnews]

I am probably the only person on this forum who didn't want Tim dismissed.

Hi.

Up until the point the university decided it wasn't going to extend TW again I was behind him. Once the university made the decision it was a no-brainer. We can't have a lame-duck coach.

BTW, the day is coming again, likely in mid-March.

And before anyone gets wild ideas about attracting top talent to coach the team, remember that Red makes about $225k (less 5% he gives right back to the school) and the University of Minnesota, which prints money under Mariucci Arena, just extended tDon for north of $600K. He makes more for just retirement than Red's entire salary. So unless you win Powerball and are willing to write one of those huge novelty checks to the university, set those dreams aside.

 

[AMC]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Hi.

Up until the point the university decided it wasn't going to extend TW again I was behind him. Once the university made the decision it was a no-brainer. We can't have a lame-duck coach.

I remembered being pretty ambivalent about it, reasoning that Maine was so screwed financially and demographically we shouldn't expect to be very good anymore (a position I still hold!).

I looked at my old posts though, and while that was my opinion, I was apparently ready for Whitehead to go after he named Joey Diamond and his significant league league leading record in all time penalty minutes his captain.

So, I guess my position was Whitehead's record, meh but defensible. Whitehead's leadership, deficient.

 

[ticapnews]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I remembered being pretty ambivalent about it, reasoning that Maine was so screwed financially and demographically we shouldn't expect to be very good anymore (a position I still hold!).

I looked at my old posts though, and while that was my opinion, I was apparently ready for Whitehead to go after he named Joey Diamond and his significant league league leading record in all time penalty minutes his captain.

So, I guess my position was Whitehead's record, meh but defensible. Whitehead's leadership, deficient.

I understood what he was trying to do there but it failed miserably. Give him the responsibility of being captain and he'll show leadership and reduce the penalty minutes. Good theory but it didn't work. Leadership and responsibility were not Joey's game.

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I understood what he was trying to do there but it failed miserably. Give him the responsibility of being captain and he'll show leadership and reduce the penalty minutes. Good theory but it didn't work. Leadership and responsibility were not Joey's game.

It worked with Preston Ryan, I think Tim did the right thing. Hind sight ......

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I believe he lost the team at Notre dame season 1 and has never got it back

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

About 20 game's into the first season is what I figured.

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Nice to see Sean Romeo doing well @ Ohio State.... 5-1-2.... 1.47 GAA.... .934 save %.

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Nice to see Sean Romeo doing well @ Ohio State....5-1-2....1.47 GAA.... .934 save %.

Wow, never would guessed that. Good for him

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[NorthMike]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Responding to Bhall' s post, seemed long to just copy again here:

A conundrum, good talent but a coach running out of time that cant put it together.

 

[NorthMike]

Hi.

Up until the point the university decided it wasn't going to extend TW again I was behind him. Once the university made the decision it was a no-brainer. We can't have a lame-duck coach.

BTW, the day is coming again, likely in mid-March.

And before anyone gets wild ideas about attracting top talent to coach the team, remember that Red makes about $225k (less 5% he gives right back to the school) and the University of Minnesota, which prints money under Mariucci Arena, just extended tDon for north of $600K. He makes more for just retirement than Red's entire salary. So unless you win Powerball and are willing to write one of those huge novelty checks to the university, set those dreams aside.

Or badger coaching salary pushing 1 mil total.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

I watch a lot of junior hockey and the skill level of the past two recruiting classes are very good. Without any reasonable argument against, these two classes represent the two best back to back recruiting classes in Orono since 2007 & 2008. Guite & Co (Leach/Michaud) have done a tremendous job bringing in known talent (e.g., Pearson, Shea) and identifying and securing talent (Tralmaks, Sasson, etc.) prior to becoming a hot commodity. I have no idea what the ultimate fate of Gendron will be, but I do worry that with the program heading in the right direction a complete change of coaching staff would result in a complete cleaning out of the recruit locker, which is quite talented. As it sits right now we are 2 years into a 5 year run of high quality recruits that Maine hasn't seen in over a decade. Winning in college hockey is hard enough let alone rocking the boat every 4 or 5 years.

It's hard to grasp what you mean when you reference "very good" recruiting classes lately... This team is clearly below average via any reasonable metric of talent. The proof is in the pudding. Has been for years. The system is likely a part of the problem, but not at the core of it.

When I see teams skate rings around Maine, as I have for years, I have to consider the primary problem to be a talent-issue. No doubt in my mind about that.

 

[umhockey91]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

What I witnessed in the UMD games was a team that consistently dumped & chased....and it worked horribly. Whether that is a talent issue or a system issue is up for debate. Not sure why these players are afraid of shooting the puck or bringing it to the net..??? Have they been instructed to not do that?

 

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

It's hard to grasp what you mean when you reference "very good" recruiting classes lately...

Not sure why it is hard to "grasp" if you re-read my entry you will see, quite explicitly, "the past two recruiting classes are very good". Perhaps this spreadsheet will aid in triggering some accurate memories for you. I made this a while back and didn't complete it, although for the purpose of this post I did add in the freshmen class.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gUgzuZZajDu_QiSdbK5KIw-UOAoC59kGIRYwJkQ5RHg/edit#gid=0

Look at that treasure trove of talent that came to Orono from 2009-10 season through 2015-16 season!!!! Maybe you are the only person incapable of seeing it. Talent = Not Good. I don't care if you are Tim, Red, or Shawn. The talent from those years is the primary accelerant of what has colloquially around here been termed the "Dumpster Fire". Throw in reduced funding and a string of very unfortunate goalie events and you get the "Lost Decade". You simply are not going to win with that.

Perhaps some numbers will help. From the "non-Standbrook Whitehead Era" (5 seasons, 2009 to 2013), aka the "Big Jr. Monarchs Era", you have 8 non-replaceable players (Mangene, Ouellette, Shore, Hutton, Renouf, Byron to go along with Parker & Lomberg who both got kicked out of school), 5 NHL draft picks (Pryor, Ouelette, Shore, Hutton, Byron) of which I am still not sure who Nick Pryor knew that got him drafted. 8 players who played a full season in USHL of which Joe Diamond was not invited back and played his final year of juniors in Ontario.

Looking at the Red Era (4 seasons, 2014-2017) there are 8 non-replaceables (Michel, Pearson, Shea, Fossier, Holway, Swayman, Tralmaks, Binner). If you noticed 7 of those 8 came in the past two years. Two, Holesinsky & Tiuraniemi, have the potential to play themselves into the non-replaceable category with time. Currently, UMaine has 7 recruits playing in the USHL, that is only 1 less than the ENTIRE "non-Strandbrook Whitehead Era"! This season the USHL has more players on NHL Central Scouting list than any other junior league in the world, including major junior leagues. Add that to the 10 current players who played in USHL including last seasons playoff MVP (Tralmaks). 5 NHL draft picks (Vesey, Pearson, Holway, Shea, Swayman), of which I do know who Vesey knows that got him drafted. That is 4 draft picks is two years. Binner has a shot at being drafted this year (if so he would be the first player drafted while currently at UMaine since 2006, Simon Danis-Pepin).

This team is clearly below average via any reasonable metric of talent. The proof is in the pudding. Has been for years. The system is likely a part of the problem, but not at the core of it.

I am not aware of a single person on this forum who has suggested that Maine is an above average team. Without collecting data from the entire USCHO forum, every poster I am aware of has suggested that Maine will finish somewhere from 7th to 11th. And I think it is fair to say that the general consensus is that if Maine finishes 11th that we as Maine fans will be justified in calling for Red's head. If they finish 7th than Red will have taken the step in the right direction we have all been waiting for and we should congratulate. Walrus hit the nail on the head with the name of this year's thread!! The seat is hot

Good teams have 4 good recruiting classes in house. Maine has two now. Next year makes 3, then 4, then 5. Players develop into better players with time. If you expect a good class of recruits to show up and rescue the program from the dumpster fire in their first season and bring Maine a championship you are as delusional as your posts seem. The road to the top from rock bottom is a looooong one. So if there is talent available and still no W's it must be the system which leads us to... Good teams also have good coaches. Is Red the guy? Ben? Alfie? Only they can answer that by providing some W's.

When I see teams skate rings around Maine, as I have for years, I have to consider the primary problem to be a talent-issue. No doubt in my mind about that.

For anyone who has taken in a UMaine game with me over the years will know that complaining about skating around UMaine defensemen is one of my favorite pass times. To me the "non-Standbrook Whitehead Era" was epitomized by poor skating undersized defensemen who couldn't clear the puck. I even have a sarcastic MT. Rushmore of these guys, I call them the "Pillars"... you know for stationary reasons.

As for this season, against UConn weekend 50/50 possession split, Miami dominated possession Friday/Maine dominated Saturday, against Duluth they hung on and gave themselves a chance against a much superior team and I personally think that is a good trait. As someone who attends every Maine home game and some away games that doesn't sound, or look, like skating rings around Maine, or a team that is a disaster, terrible, or whatever adjectives you use to describe the team. Sounds like a team that is somewhere between the bottom and the middle. And for a program that 2 seasons ago was at the bottom that means the team has gotten better.

In the end I know that I wasted my time writing the post to you but perhaps others on the forum will appreciate some of the actual facts.

 

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

What I witnessed in the UMD games was a team that consistently dumped & chased....and it worked horribly. Whether that is a talent issue or a system issue is up for debate. Not sure why these players are afraid of shooting the puck or bringing it to the net..??? Have they been instructed to not do that?

Against UMD they seemed to rely solely on dump and chase seemingly because UMD was incredibly sound in the Neutral Zone and Maine couldn't pass or skate the puck through. Against teams more on par with Maine like UConn they didn't rely on dump and chase as much, but certainly favored it more than your average team would, and certainly more than I would prefer. To assess if this is players or system we ask the question, "Did the players overly rely on that before coming to Orono?" From my viewing experience the answer to that is no. Two things I will be looking for as the season progresses is, do the freshmen D adjust to NCAA neutral zone speed?, and does the system change to better utilize the skill that the team has. Red seems to prefer a hell-bent North-South game that forces the play and is the antithesis of the late Whitehead years where it seemed like our guys were overly patient and only go side to side. There is a happy medium to be found where you take what the opponent gives you, like what we saw last weekend against UMD, and I would suggest to Red he tries to find it.

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

44, 2 great posts, i for one appreciate the analysis, I'm sure others will also

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[AMC]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

It worked with Preston Ryan, I think Tim did the right thing. Hind sight ......

Preston had a short fuse, but he always looked like he was on the ice to play hockey. A flip would switch and he would do something dumb, but it was an instantaneous thing. If he somehow got away with it, or came back from the box, he'd be a hockey player again.

Diamond, there were times when everyone in the building seemed to know that he was just on the ice to commit a minor felony, and Whitehead kept giving him shifts. Inevitably he'd get ejected and it would have been obvious it was coming for the prior half a period.

 

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Preston had a short fuse, but he always looked like he was on the ice to play hockey. A flip would switch and he would do something dumb, but it was an instantaneous thing. If he somehow got away with it, or came back from the box, he'd be a hockey player again.

Diamond, there were times when everyone in the building seemed to know that he was just on the ice to commit a minor felony, and Whitehead kept giving him shifts. Inevitably he'd get ejected and it would have been obvious it was coming for the prior half a period.

Great conversation. Got me thinking. I went back and looked up Prestin and Joey's most penalized seasons. Prestin's final season, junior year, 58 penalties totaling 148 PIM in 43 games or 3.44 PIM/Game. Joey's senior season he had 49 penalties totaling 147 PIM in 33 games or 4.45 PIM/Game. To put this in reference the season following Joey's departure (2013-14) the entire Maine team had 342 PIM in 35 games. The most penalized player currently on the team is Mark Hamilton and for his career (3+seasons) he has 163 PIM (this number actually surprised me, i thought it was higher) in 116 games or 1.40 PIM/Game. Staggering numbers!! I remembered Prestin and Joey spending significant time in the box but time had massaged things a little bit for me. Fun to look back.

 

[Drew S.]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Per usual Bhall is talking a lot of sense. The quick fix/easy turnaround crowd are delusional.

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2017-2018 season, is this Reds last stand?

Per usual Bhall is talking a lot of sense. The quick fix/easy turnaround crowd are delusional.

Isn't this reds 4th year? Most people have been patient. That patience won't last forever.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk