The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

This thread serves as a good basis to understand why nothing probably gets done in congress. People can’t even agree on what the issues are and no one ever budges. Everyone seems to think that their point of view is immutable - present company included.

If we can’t get 2 or 3 people to agree on some basic issues - how do we expect congress and the united states as a whole to agree on larger complex ones?

 

[Priceless]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

This thread serves as a good basis to understand why nothing probably gets done in congress. People can’t even agree on what the issues are and no one ever budges. Everyone seems to think that their point of view is immutable - present company included.

If we can’t get 2 or 3 people to agree on some basic issues - how do we expect congress and the united states as a whole to agree on larger complex ones?

Leadership.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

The bottom line is the easiest way to get rich is to find a way to take advantage of stupidity. See KISS Gene Simmons, and anyone who shorted mortgage securities a few years back. Like I said before, collapse is inevitable. We're good in a crisis but horrible on futures.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

The bottom line is the easiest way to get rich is to find a way to take advantage of stupidity. See KISS Gene Simmons, and anyone who shorted mortgage securities a few years back. Like I said before, collapse is inevitable. We're good in a crisis but horrible on futures.

The book “The greatest trade ever” portrays how John Paulson did this. Still not very far, but am curious how he managed to make it happen.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

The book “The greatest trade ever” portrays how John Paulson did this. Still not very far, but am curious how he managed to make it happen.

"The Big Short" by Michael Lewis explains how it happened pretty well.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

"The Big Short" by Michael Lewis explains how it happened pretty well.

going to add that to the reading list for the summer. Thankfully greatest trade ever is a quick read and a 1-2 day project. Atlas Shrugged on the other hand...

 

[unofan]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Atlas Shrugged on the other hand...

Is an overrated steaming pile of crap?

 

[Almington]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

I should have been more careful and stated that debt was a part of, not a result of inflation. Debt was a coping mechanism for the middle class to get by, and more households incur debt than they used too. Things like college cost more today , thus people must incur debt to cope and afford it.

That's a load of garbage. You're saying that spending money you don't have is a way to cope with not having money to spend? I don't call that coping, I call that dillusional. That's how you insure that you NEVER have any money to spend. Stupid is the problem, inflation only makes being stupid now hurt less later.
People incure debt primarally because they want things or experences that they can't afford now. The only thing that you have to borrow money for is to buy a home.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

That's a load of garbage. You're saying that spending money you don't have is a way to cope with not having money to spend? I don't call that coping, I call that dillusional. That's how you insure that you NEVER have any money to spend. Stupid is the problem, inflation only makes being stupid now hurt less later.
People incure debt primarally because they want things or experences that they can't afford now. The only thing that you have to borrow money for is to buy a home.

So lets go over this again. Wages remain stagnant , the cost of living goes up and people cope. The overall savings rate has declined, and the debt per person has drastically increased. That’s not a load of garbage, that’s just fact. To be clear, inflation of commodities will not help anyone and will continue to cut into people’s real wages just as long as they don’t go up.

‘The only thing you have to borrow money for is to buy a home”

Your officially in the retard rickshaw with UNO. People are borrowing 5 and 6 figure amounts to pay for college. What about some folk with insane medical expenses?

Time to lay off the wowwie sauce dude. You’re a ****ing mess.

 

[Almington]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

This thread serves as a good basis to understand why nothing probably gets done in congress. People can’t even agree on what the issues are and no one ever budges. Everyone seems to think that their point of view is immutable - present company included.

If we can’t get 2 or 3 people to agree on some basic issues - how do we expect congress and the united states as a whole to agree on larger complex ones?

We already solved the federal budget problem though compromise:
1.) Eliminate Bush Tax cuts for everyone
2.) Reform (simplify) tax code, eliminate corporate taxes
3.) Draw down troops from Iraq and Afghanistan
4.) Raise retirement age to 68 for anyone who is 55 or younger
5.) Means test for SS and Medicare
6.) Cap increases in discretionary spending to level of economic growth or inflation.

That solution train left the station a few pages ago.

We are now debating what amounts to economic theory questions that have no impact on the federal budget.

 

[Almington]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

So lets go over this again. Wages remain stagnant , the cost of living goes up and people cope. The overall savings rate has declined, and the debt per person has drastically increased. That’s not a load of garbage, that’s just fact. To be clear, inflation of commodities will not help anyone and will continue to cut into people’s real wages just as long as they don’t go up.

‘The only thing you have to borrow money for is to buy a home”

Your officially in the retard rickshaw with UNO. People are borrowing 5 and 6 figure amounts to pay for college. What about some folk with insane medical expenses?

Time to lay off the wowwie sauce dude. You’re a ****ing mess.

That may be a fact, but that doesn't make it any less foolish. It just become a viscous cycle that will spiral.

I don't have enough money to have everything I want, so I "cope" by spending money I don't have buy taking on debt for things I want but don't need.
Now, because of my debt payments I have even less money, so I "cope" by spending even more money and taking on more debt.
Now, because of even larger debt payments I have even less money, so I "cope" by borrowing more money and taking on more debt.
Now, because of my crushing debt payment, I have even less money so I "survive" by borrowing money for my basic expenses.


I didn't know that spending $25K on a new car every three years or dropping $300 on the newest electronic device was critical to the survival of the typical middle class family.

Middle class families in America are not going without the basic necessities of life: healthy food, basic shelter, and standard clothing (plus the basic utilities of heat, water, and electricity). They are not going into debt coping with satisfying those needs, they are buying things that they WANT that they don't have money for. I have a car, but I WANT a new car. I have a TV, but I want an HD TV one. I have a house but I WANT a bigger house/ a bigger yard/ in a more prestigious area. People borrow money to buy stuff that they want right now but can't afford right now.

A real increase in the cost of commodities is not impacted by inflation, neither is the change in the real value of wages. If the real cost of something goes up by 5%, it is going to go up by 5% even if inflation is -2%, 0% or 5%.

You don't have to borrow money to go to college and graduate with a BA/BS, you absolutely do not need to borrow $100k to get a bachelor degree.

If I go into the hospital with an emergency (say from a car accident) I may owe the hospital many thousands of dollars and have that as a debt I need to pay, but I didn't go out and voluntarily borrow money to buy something.

I will correct my statement:
Only two things that you should go into debt for: buying a house and unexpected medical debts. The only thing that you borrow money for is to buy a house.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

I will correct my statement:
Only two things that you should go into debt for: buying a house and unexpected medical debts. The only thing that you borrow money for is to buy a house.

I think I mentioned something about consumer habits having something to do with it, and I totally agree with you. I am the first one to mention my friends who have a lot of stuff but have incurred a lot of debt on their own. Do I agree with that? Hells no. I’ve never had a debt in my life outside of my new car, which in retrospect was a mistake and something I paid off very early to get the debt off my books.

A lot of it boils down to personal responsibility. A good number of folks don’t have it. You will see no argument from me on this point.

Education for some will cost a lot. several of my friends in medical school will acquire over 100 k$ in debt. They are dilligent and due to their situation, they will have a great burden of debt. Some are just stupid with college and spend a ton of money for a degree that will not help them out. While college costs more, no one is forcing people to go. To get the better jobs, one had better cowboy up and get a real degree. for some, this will cost them money..

 

[Almington]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

I think I mentioned something about consumer habits having something to do with it, and I totally agree with you. I am the first one to mention my friends who have a lot of stuff but have incurred a lot of debt on their own. Do I agree with that? Hells no. I’ve never had a debt in my life outside of my new car, which in retrospect was a mistake and something I paid off very early to get the debt off my books.

A lot of it boils down to personal responsibility. A good number of folks don’t have it. You will see no argument from me on this point.

Education for some will cost a lot. several of my friends in medical school will acquire over 100 k$ in debt. They are dilligent and due to their situation, they will have a great burden of debt. Some are just stupid with college and spend a ton of money for a degree that will not help them out. While college costs more, no one is forcing people to go. To get the better jobs, one had better cowboy up and get a real degree. for some, this will cost them money..

You said that people need to take on debt to cope with the fact that costs were rising faster than wages. You didn't say anything about personal responsibility before.

Either way, it's as you say: being personally responsible, or as I say: don't be a moron with an entitlement complex. You are just nicer about it.

Medical school isn't the same to me as college. College implies getting a simple BS or BA and that is something that can be done without taking on debt.
There are even ways to earn an advanced degree without taking on piles of debt.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

I'm jumping in late here, but I fail to see the problem with acquiring debt in the form of student loans, provided you actually get a degree that is going to be an asset to you and gives the ability to pay back the loans in a reasonable amount of time. Also, I've taken out a loan to buy a couple loads of feeders, fed them out for 6-8 months, sold them as fats, paid back the loan plus interest and made a couple thousand dollars in profit. Why is this bad?

 

[Almington]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

I'm jumping in late here, but I fail to see the problem with acquiring debt in the form of student loans, provided you actually get a degree that is going to be an asset to you and gives the ability to pay back the loans in a reasonable amount of time. Also, I've taken out a loan to buy a couple loads of feeders, fed them out for 6-8 months, sold them as fats, paid back the loan plus interest and made a couple thousand dollars in profit. Why is this bad?

Debt is dangerous because of the risk inherent in the fact that you can not be 100% sure of what the future will hold.

The issue with student loan debt is that you have no idea what job you will get after you graduate (if you will even be able to get a job) and that how much you borrow is not dependent on what your job prospects are after you graduate. As such how do you determine how much student loan debt is a resonable amount given all the factors? No to mention that in many cases you'll still be paying off the loan 10 to 15 years after you have graduated, you will pay nearly as much in interest as the value of the origninal loan. Most americans would have trouble scrapping $2,000 in case of an emergency, maybe it's because the $24k in loans that the typical undergrad has at graduation cost hearly $48k to pay off?

As fo your feeders: What would have happened if you couldn't have sold them off because they were sick or died? How would you have covered the loans in that case? It wasn't a bad business move, because it all worked out. The issue is that you incurred a significant amount of risk that you may not have recognized. That said, business debt is different from personal debt, as business debt should result in either income production or significant appreciation in value, but the risk still exists.

Debt carries risk because that money is supposed to be repaid on a set schedule based on expectations of an uncertain future.

 

[Tundra]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

So where you guys stand on government guarantee of student loans. 90% of revenue for profit university comes from government guarantee loans. And you can't get out of it under 2005 Bush bankruptcy law.

I think it's a bad idea. just like our guarantee of housing (fannie/freddie) and banking (TARP,Fed/Treasury guarantees and buying toxic assets). It's one thing to help low income families (5-10%) get an education or a house. it's another to "help" everyone (90%+) get an education or a house. Without some form of price control you're creating rampant inflation (price rise) via gov guaranteed demand.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Big-s...6.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=5&asset=&ccode=

which can represent up to 90 percent of a school's revenue. If graduates owe too much relative to their income, or too few former students are paying back their tuition loans on time, schools stand to lose access to Pell grants and federal student aid. Such a loss would seriously crimp schools' ability to attract students and make money.

Under final terms of the law, schools will only be able to receive federal-paid tuition if at least 35 percent of its former students are repaying their loans. Or, the estimated annual loan payment of a typical graduate must not be bigger than 30 percent of his or her discretionary income, or 12 percent of his or her total earnings.

The agency drew up the gainful employment rule in 2010, but delayed putting it into effect as it faced heavy lobbying from schools and politicians. For the past 18 months, the DOE has been negotiating the scope of gainful employment with industry representatives and advocates. Last summer, the DOE released a draft of the regulation and the tough proposed stance spurred a sell-off in education shares. Companies fought hard against it. The DOE received more than 90,000 comments about the rule. Corinthian alone has spent more than $1 million since the beginning of last year on lobbying.

The lobbying appears to have worked. Under the rule's original terms, programs that failed to meet the criteria would have lost federal loan eligibility immediately and enrollment would have been frozen at any school in danger of failing. But the finalized rule gives schools multiple chances over a four-year period to improve their stats

 

[Almington]

So where you guys stand on government guarantee of student loans.

Another well meaning policy that was horribly implemented. The lenders take on no risk and thus have no reason to ensure that the party taking the loans will be able to repay them. The fact that now the government will be making the loans directly is only slightly better.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

We already solved the federal budget problem though compromise:
1.) Eliminate Bush Tax cuts for everyone
2.) Reform (simplify) tax code, eliminate corporate taxes
3.) Draw down troops from Iraq and Afghanistan
4.) Raise retirement age to 68 for anyone who is 55 or younger
5.) Means test for SS and Medicare
6.) Cap increases in discretionary spending to level of economic growth or inflation.

That solution train left the station a few pages ago.

And our best bet at suggesting this in Congress, Olympia Snowe, waved her good-byes and watched our plan fade into oblivion. I think she about does it for the Senate...any House members that might be open-minded? Suggesting this to my own Congresswoman would be a waste of time.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

College implies getting a simple BS or BA and that is something that can be done without taking on debt.
There are even ways to earn an advanced degree without taking on piles of debt.

Some job fields offer student debt forgiveness as well (such as teachers going to under-served districts, doctors taking residencies in less desirable places, and a handful of other public service jobs).

I think that for undergrads, student loans should be capped at $50k (and allowed to rise at the rate of wage inflation - this way the average ability to repay the loans will remain roughly where it is now). Work-study should be a stronger point of emphasis to keep this debt load under control.

Priceless - I don't see the House members being likely to give our ideas a fair hearing. They are far more partisan and special interest-oriented than the Senate is due to their short terms and small geographical footprint. The GOP has shown a widespread and deeply-rooted resistance to any tax increase, and there will probably be bipartisan opposition to the means testing idea (because it's "unfair").

To put it another way, these dogmatic chickensh*ts aren't interested in actually solving the problem.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

To put it another way, these dogmatic chickensh*ts aren't interested in actually solving the problem.

That seems to sum it up nicely.