The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Another well meaning policy that was horribly implemented. The lenders take on no risk and thus have no reason to ensure that the party taking the loans will be able to repay them. The fact that now the government will be making the loans directly is only slightly better.

To your last post, I should have included a clause about personal responsibility as that is something I believe in and something many people lack. Unfortunately, I keep posts shorter than I’d like since I juggle work with this ( excel takes a long *** time with the data sets I have to crunch). To bring closure to my statement, I believe people are taking on generally more debt now than 40 years ago be it for college, personal reasons or unforeseen circumstances. Most people do not understand saving, nor do they understand saving money than making a purchase. Truth be told, people have very little knowledge of just how bad interest is on money one is borrowing vs the payout of even small compounded interest one could acquire in a low risk fund. Alas, this discussion is a tangent and I do not wish to derail this thread any further.

In response to this post and others, does anyone else feel that the college loans could lead to issues down the road? As tundra said, one cannot default on them so in essence, they are somewhat guaranteed. What happens when this guarantee doesn’t work out for whatever reason? And most importantly, is there a way to bet against it =)

 

[Bill]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

To your last post, I should have included a clause about personal responsibility as that is something I believe in and something many people lack. Unfortunately, I keep posts shorter than I’d like since I juggle work with this ( excel takes a long *** time with the data sets I have to crunch). To bring closure to my statement, I believe people are taking on generally more debt now than 40 years ago be it for college, personal reasons or unforeseen circumstances. Most people do not understand saving, nor do they understand saving money than making a purchase. Truth be told, people have very little knowledge of just how bad interest is on money one is borrowing vs the payout of even small compounded interest one could acquire in a low risk fund. Alas, this discussion is a tangent and I do not wish to derail this thread any further.

In response to this post and others, does anyone else feel that the college loans could lead to issues down the road? As tundra said, one cannot default on them so in essence, they are somewhat guaranteed. What happens when this guarantee doesn’t work out for whatever reason? And most importantly, is there a way to bet against it =)

And with artificially low interest rates, the government is discouraging saving and encouraging spending.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

If there has to be widespread forgiveness of anything, I'd pick education loans. At least they represent an investment and a significant increase in value, as opposed to people putting a 30 foot high foyer in their house or sinking $20k more into their car than they can afford.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

And with artificially low interest rates, the government is discouraging saving and encouraging spending.

Right, lower interest rates make borrowing easier, which usually leads to speculation of sorts. Its whats happening in the stock market now with QE2, and why many stock shares are priced so high. Oddly enough, there has been a higher ratio of sellers to buyers lately – in October of last year it was 2000 to 1

This is tracking insider trading though, so its not indicative of all transactions.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

As fo your feeders: What would have happened if you couldn't have sold them off because they were sick or died? How would you have covered the loans in that case? It wasn't a bad business move, because it all worked out. The issue is that you incurred a significant amount of risk that you may not have recognized. That said, business debt is different from personal debt, as business debt should result in either income production or significant appreciation in value, but the risk still exists.

That is what insurance is for. But I see what you mean with regards to the difference between personal and business debt. I still don't agree with the student loan opinion you have. I would not have been able to go to school if I couldn't have gotten loans, and I'd be working for my dad, miserable as hell right now if I didn't go to school. The key is getting a degree that will be valuable, not some art history or something useless like that.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

The key is getting a degree that will be valuable, not some art history or something useless like that.

So this goes back to what almington said with personal responsibility. If one incurs debt, but gets a 4 year degree in engineering/nursing, odds are they can pay it back in a reasonable amount of time and have a very valuable skill set. However, if one is just doing college and getting 60k in debt only to get a job they could have right out of high school, this is not the responsible thing to do. I find a lot of folks fall into the later category.

Here is to hoping the paradigm is changing a little. People should look at college as an investment for the future, not a time to party ( you can do that after college )

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Here is to hoping the paradigm is changing a little. People should look at college as an investment for the future, not a time to party ( you can do that after college )

Well, some of us partied and were still productive enough to get a good degree and subsequent job.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Well, some of us partied and were still productive enough to get a good degree and subsequent job.

For sure man. I finished fairly high in my class in engineering and still had a good time. Play hard, work harder imo.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

The key is getting a degree that will be valuable, not some art history or something useless like that.

The actual value of art history is probably significantly greater than that of any major anybody on this board has. But 99% of the people who get something like that do it out of their parents' pocket change, in between trips to Europe. No. I'm not the least bit envious.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

For sure man. I finished fairly high in my class in engineering and still had a good time. Play hard, work harder imo.

There are some exams from senior year that I wish I remember taking, though.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

The actual value of art history is probably significantly greater than that of any major anybody on this board has. But 99% of the people who get something like that do it out of their parents' pocket change, in between trips to Europe. No. I'm not the least bit envious.

Is there value in the humanities? Yes.
Is there utility in churning out many thousands of degrees in the humanities? No.

Our higher education system is a fine example of a misallocation of resources; there's too many people trying to become lawyers and journalists and not enough people trying to become nurses and doctors. If there's only X number of jobs available for a certain major, we shouldn't be churning out X+Y degrees in that major. Or to put it another way, the taxpayers should not be subsidizing the pursuit of degrees in heavily saturated areas that are likely to produce unemployed or underemployed graduates.

 

[unofan]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Our higher education system is a fine example of a misallocation of resources; there's too many people trying to become lawyers and journalists and not enough people trying to become nurses and doctors.

Law schools are money makers for universities. Medical schools are not.

Also, the AMA doesn't accredit everyone, limiting how many people become doctors each year. The ABA is looking at accrediting law schools in China now, and hasn't turned down a new law school for accredidation in recent memory.

So the blame doesn't fall entirely on the students. I think there are plenty of people who would become doctors if there were more slots available.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

There's definitely a cultural aspect to the lack of saving in this country. Don't worry, I gag on social theory. I'm not going to inflict it on this thread. But I'd have to concede: there's something there.

I can pull up economic data from other industrialized countries that show substantially greater saving under all sorts of conditions (whether inflation is relatively low/high interest rates are low/high, unemployment is low/high, etc.)

I wouldn't blame Americans' lack of saving on any particular economic indicator. Economic conditions might be exacerbating the problem, but they didn't create it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Is there value in the humanities? Yes.
Is there utility in churning out many thousands of degrees in the humanities? No.

The lightweight humanities degree was replaced a generation ago with the worthless business degree and the ubiquitous "education" degree. Jack and Jill Rockhead don't get degrees in English or History any more -- they're too hard (reading? ew!) They get them in Communications, Business Administration, or Marketing.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

And of course it's not just that people are getting degrees that aren't of much use and all, but that the public is paying huge sums of money to help them do so. Students generally don't pay anywhere near the full cost of their education, with taxpayers picking up a good chunk of the tab. So, when folks go to college and don't get useful degrees, it's bad for both them and the public that has helped pay for their education.

 

[Almington]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

That is what insurance is for. But I see what you mean with regards to the difference between personal and business debt. I still don't agree with the student loan opinion you have. I would not have been able to go to school if I couldn't have gotten loans, and I'd be working for my dad, miserable as hell right now if I didn't go to school. The key is getting a degree that will be valuable, not some art history or something useless like that.

You recognized the risk and purchased insurance to transfer the risk to someone else (the insurance company).

Did you work while going to school (both during the summer and school year)? Did you explore scholarship opportunities? Did you take advantage of in-state tuition opportunities? While I recognize that student loans are the easiest way to pay for school, I don't understand why so many people think that they can't work part-time and earn an undergrad degree at the same time.

My overall general problem with student loans is this: To many people consider student loans the primary source of college funding and I believe that they should be the funding source of last resort once all other sources have been exhausted and should NEVER be used on living expenses.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

You recognized the risk and purchased insurance to transfer the risk to someone else (the insurance company).

Did you work while going to school (both during the summer and school year)? Did you explore scholarship opportunities? Did you take advantage of in-state tuition opportunities? While I recognize that student loans are the easiest way to pay for school, I don't understand why so many people think that they can't work part-time and earn an undergrad degree at the same time.

My overall general problem with student loans is this: To many people consider student loans the primary source of college funding and I believe that they should be the funding source of last resort once all other sources have been exhausted and should NEVER be used on living expenses.

Agreed. I worked every year I was in college, and it was a big help in paying my way through. I'm not sure if it's as easy to do, now that higher education costs have skyrocketed, but it would be good for a lot of college kids to do, even beyond the obvious financial benefits.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

Agreed. I worked every year I was in college, and it was a big help in paying my way through. I'm not sure if it's as easy to do, now that higher education costs have skyrocketed, but it would be good for a lot of college kids to do, even beyond the obvious financial benefits.

As with everything else, part of the problem is there just aren't as many of those kinds of jobs anymore. All those poor Jewish guys from Brooklyn who went to night school at CCNY and cut and hauled ice during the day? AC ruined everything.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

You recognized the risk and purchased insurance to transfer the risk to someone else (the insurance company).

Did you work while going to school (both during the summer and school year)? Did you explore scholarship opportunities? Did you take advantage of in-state tuition opportunities? While I recognize that student loans are the easiest way to pay for school, I don't understand why so many people think that they can't work part-time and earn an undergrad degree at the same time.

My overall general problem with student loans is this: To many people consider student loans the primary source of college funding and I believe that they should be the funding source of last resort once all other sources have been exhausted and should NEVER be used on living expenses.

My primary source of money for school was scholarships, and I did work some, because of this I didn't build up a whole lot of student loans, but I do have some. Since they are very low interest loans, I really don't regret doing it.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The USCHO Budget Thread (warning: political)

I think it is worth noting that as diverse as our political philosophies are, we managed to resolve the budget mess with time (and money) to spare and Congress did not. We were able to put aside partisan differences to get a solution. Granted, we don't have the same political pressures our elected officials do, but if this was sold effectively the public would have bought it. As I've said before, I think Congress vastly underestimates the willingness of the American people and our stomach for shared sacrifice. The spirit that led JFK to say ""We choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard" still lives within us. It is unfortunate that our leaders either do not share it or do not believe in it.

If any of you who were involved in this discussion ever decide to run for public office, count on my support.