The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Lmao... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Lmao... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

I love this. Which specific facts are 'not right' and what are the counter facts?

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Please tell me who the vast majority of that taxpayer money for the stadium ended up benefiting and how that compares to say a progressive government program.

 

[Rover]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

I have no specific knowledge of Minny's US Bank stadium deal. However in general I'm skeptical of these because proponents tend to talk up the economic activity of the new stadium while not subtracting the economic activity (including tax revenues) that the old stadium generated. This is the bait and switch that's going on in Rhode Island right now, a broke state if there ever was one not named Illinois or Mississippi, that's being help up by the Red Sox AAA affiliate for a new taxpayer funded stadium.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Foxconn is a terrible piece of corporate welfare in a junk industry. Do not confuse this will all investments...



Its a good time to review the stunning success of US Bank. Truly the best investment this state's made in the last several decades. We've already broke even on the $500m with $370m in economic gains from the superbowl and the final four (expected at $142m).

Before plans to construct a new Vikings stadium took shape in 2011, the eastern part of downtown Minneapolis was famously called “a concrete oasis” by Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton. A 2010 Great Streets study found that 25 percent of the neighborhood’s land was set aside for parking or vacant lots.

Anchored by the new stadium as well as a $588 million five-block redevelopment called Downtown East built around twin 17-story towers owned by Wells Fargo, a $2B constellation of construction projects shows the city trying to turn a stadium project into a benefit for the entire city. All of this $2B in real estate is taxable. So are the residents. So are the companies. And so is all the money they spend.

http://www.startribune.com/super-bo...-to-a-resounding-win-for-minnesota/484225471/

http://www.startribune.com/2019-fin...ors-to-twin-cities-analysis-claims/481435101/

https://www.curbed.com/2017/11/28/16709820/minneapolis-big-build-super-bowl-52

Do I have to *****-slap you with all of the academic studies again that prove stadiums are a colossal waste of money

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

I have no specific knowledge of Minny's US Bank stadium deal. However in general I'm skeptical of these because proponents tend to talk up the economic activity of the new stadium while not subtracting the economic activity (including tax revenues) that the old stadium generated. This is the bait and switch that's going on in Rhode Island right now, a broke state if there ever was one not named Illinois or Mississippi, that's being help up by the Red Sox AAA affiliate for a new taxpayer funded stadium.

This is all true, I think they try to subtract the economic activity that would've happened anyhow from the revenue that was generated during the superbowl.

My issue is that you can spur the economy through a lot of different avenues and giving billionaires a handout isn't the only way nor the best way of achieving that. Especially when the vast majority of that money is going to go to hotel owners (many of which are out of state), the Wilf's, the NFL. This isn't even getting into the fact that the lightrail shut down for a few days (and yes there are people that have to work that weekend) and downtown was a total zoo. It's just not a very efficient use of taxpayer funds.

Do I have to *****-slap you with all of the academic studies again that prove stadiums are a colossal waste of money

Yes, I could use a refresher anyhow and wouldn't mind reading your links.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Please tell me who the vast majority of that taxpayer money for the stadium ended up benefiting and how that compares to say a progressive government program.

There isn't a finite set of funds available to governments. Governments can borrow like anyone else - Minnesota has one of the best credit ratings in the country...AA+. So the question of 'what program doesn't get funded' is only if the investment is a loser. What matters is the return on investment. If the return is great - like US Bank - then it fills the government coffers.

The net message is that we massively improved upcoming funding for progressive government programs by using the states resources effectively. Then companies are attracted due to improved quality of life...and improved progressive government programs. See a dying Milwaukee as the stark alternative. Moves like this are why Minneapolis has the fasted growing city core in the midwest and Minnesota is the best run state in the country per USA Today.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

First post in a series. The entire thread of posts between this page and the following are good reads. I'll cover my highlights.

There have been dozens of studies published that communities get something like half their money back between stadium builds. You NEVER recoup that money. It just gets passed on to the team owner.

Then you can go and find the sources for their article:
--RSM McGladrey, Metropolitan Sports Facility Commission
--The Minnesota Vikings
--The Minnesota Vikings
--Email exchange, John Stiles, spokesman, Mayor R.T. Rybak
--Email exchange, Ryan Brown, spokesman, Minnesota Department of Revenue

Hardly unbiased sources. I mean they couldn't have picked a more biased source of information. One is the MSC whose responsibility it is to run the metro sports arenas. Two are the Minnesota Vikings themselves. One is a politician who didn't want to be the one to lose the Vikings. The other is the Minnesota Department of Revenue and what portion of that article is sourced from the DoR isn't even listed.

If you take a look at any unbiased source you'd find a galaxy of evidence supporting the exact opposite conclusion:
https://news.stanford.edu/2015/07/30/stadium-economics-noll-073015/
https://college.holycross.edu/RePEc/spe/CoatesHumphreys_LitReview.pdf
https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/Coates-Sports-Franchises.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6688(199923)18:4<601::AID-PAM4>3.0.CO;2-A/full

But the most important post in the series was this one:

How many years will it take US Bank Stadium to generate the tax revenue to repay the State of MN and the City of Minneapolis for their contributions into the stadium?

Star Tribune:
The state’s share of the project is $348 million — or about $616 million, including interest over three decades. Minneapolis is covering $150 million over the same period, plus about $7.5 million a year for operations and maintenance — or about $631 million accounting for interest and inflation.
The Humptydome was replaced after 28 years. How long will US Bank Stadium last? Do you really expect the various governments to recoup those expenses?

How much of an ROI would the state and city get if they were to instead invest that money into schools, infrastructure, and improved public services? The money spent on the team could've gone elsewhere - opportunity costs gone. How many people are directly employed by US Bank Stadium and the Vikings? What if we were to instead give the money to a corporation that permanently (as permanent as can be...) employed a large workforce with new facilities that weren't paid to a billionaire owner, a few millionaire employees, and a few more earning six figures?

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Well when it comes to US Bank Stadium, you have to compare it to the Metrodome which was also a cruddy deal and was not used to its capacity. US Bank stadium, at least for now, is probably doing better for the state than the Dump did.

That is not the case with most stadiums though.

Minneapolis is to blame for it though. Remember the Wilfs didnt want the stadium there they wanted it in Arden Hills.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Are you seriously arguing that the difference between MN and WI is that we gave taxpayer money to billionaires for a stadium? HAHAHAHAHAHA I can't even. I'm pretty sure Miller park was publicly funded and they hosted an All Star game among other things.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

I have no specific knowledge of Minny's US Bank stadium deal. However in general I'm skeptical of these because proponents tend to talk up the economic activity of the new stadium while not subtracting the economic activity (including tax revenues) that the old stadium generated. This is the bait and switch that's going on in Rhode Island right now, a broke state if there ever was one not named Illinois or Mississippi, that's being help up by the Red Sox AAA affiliate for a new taxpayer funded stadium.

Your chances of replicating our success is slim at best.

 

[aparch]

I'm pretty sure Miller park was publicly funded and they hosted an All Star game among other things.

It was.

http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/06/22/the-continuing-costs-of-miller-park/

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

First post in a series. The entire thread of posts between this page and the following are good reads. I'll cover my highlights.



But the most important post in the series was this one:

These either have nothing to do with US Bank stadium or are speculation of what a US Bank stadium might look like. Next year when you show these irrelevant docs, they'll look even more ridiculous. Many numbers are already in the books. Economic benefits - events booked at well over $500m, key catalyst for billions in regional development, and benefits of the Vikings - make a break even already a done deal.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Are you seriously arguing that the difference between MN and WI is that we gave taxpayer money to billionaires for a stadium?

I'm saying that your premise of investments in a stadium automatically meaning we must spend less on education is wrong.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Foxconn is a terrible piece of corporate welfare in a junk industry. Do not confuse this will all investments...



Its a good time to review the stunning success of US Bank. Truly the best investment this state's made in the last several decades. We've already broke even on the $500m with $370m in economic gains from the superbowl and the final four (expected at $142m).

Before plans to construct a new Vikings stadium took shape in 2011, the eastern part of downtown Minneapolis was famously called “a concrete oasis” by Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton. A 2010 Great Streets study found that 25 percent of the neighborhood’s land was set aside for parking or vacant lots.

Anchored by the new stadium as well as a $588 million five-block redevelopment called Downtown East built around twin 17-story towers owned by Wells Fargo, a $2B constellation of construction projects shows the city trying to turn a stadium project into a benefit for the entire city. All of this $2B in real estate is taxable. So are the residents. So are the companies. And so is all the money they spend.

http://www.startribune.com/super-bo...-to-a-resounding-win-for-minnesota/484225471/

http://www.startribune.com/2019-fin...ors-to-twin-cities-analysis-claims/481435101/

https://www.curbed.com/2017/11/28/16709820/minneapolis-big-build-super-bowl-52

Have you actually been in Downtown East lately? I work there, and it's sorely lacking a in a great many things. Those two WF buildings put up, their skyways are near barren, but clearly designed to a series of shops/restaurants that nobody has interest in opening. There are some There's a giant street-level bar space is the WF 600 building that's going unused.

For hosting these events, what were the directly incurred costs of those events? They're suspiciously missing the Strib's articles.

Your chances of replicating our success is slim at best.

That's yet to be proven...and likely will be debunked by neutral-party economists in a few years. They always debunk them, like clockwork.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

I'm saying that your premise of investments in a stadium automatically meaning we must spend less on education is wrong.

States do not have the ability to borrow without limitations. Your premise is as flawed as your biases on the stadium situation.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

The Vikings stadium was a giveaway to rich people. Unfortunately for everyone in Minnesota that's the way the game is played. Rich people can always find a city in the United States that will give them money. You want a team you have to bend over.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

I'm saying that your premise of investments in a stadium automatically meaning we must spend less on education is wrong.

Nobody claimed that, I said directly putting money towards that is better than pretending it trickles down from billionaires and the NFL.

It was.

http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/06/22/the-continuing-costs-of-miller-park/

You posted the same article as me actually, good read for an example of another stadium deal that costs taxpayers more than it benefits them.

 

[Rover]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

Your chances of replicating our success is slim at best.

No need to. Bob Kraft told the state to pay for a new stadium. Mass told him to go screw. He then said he was moving the Patriots to Hartford where CT promised to build a billion dollar stadium and buy up all unused tickets to guarantee a sellout for 30 years! State said see ya later. Kraft is a smart businessman and realized moving the franchise to a dying city in a dying state maybe wasn't a good idea, and came back hat in hand with a promise to build his own stadium with his own money if the state would improve some roads near it. State said sure. The rest is history.

Red Sox pre John Henry tried the same thing, and got the same response.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The States: Why does Minnesota wanna be Kansas?

No need to. Bob Kraft told the state to pay for a new stadium. Mass told him to go screw. He then said he was moving the Patriots to Hartford where CT promised to build a billion dollar stadium and buy up all unused tickets to guarantee a sellout for 30 years! State said see ya later. Kraft is a smart businessman and realized moving the franchise to a dying city in a dying state maybe wasn't a good idea, and came back hat in hand with a promise to build his own stadium with his own money if the state would improve some roads near it. State said sure. The rest is history.

Red Sox pre John Henry tried the same thing, and got the same response.

I believe it. MN doesn't have the population of New England. The Vikings were flirting with LA...and subsequently two teams moved there. So for us, a real threat.

Have you actually been in Downtown East lately? I work there, and it's sorely lacking a in a great many things. Those two WF buildings put up, their skyways are near barren, but clearly designed to a series of shops/restaurants that nobody has interest in opening. There are some There's a giant street-level bar space is the WF 600 building that's going unused.

I'm surprised you don't remember the parking lot ghost town that east side was 10 years ago. Few jobs there then.

For hosting these events, what were the directly incurred costs of those events? They're suspiciously missing the Strib's articles.

Sounds like speculation. It also doesn't appear to include many other collateral benefits including the circulation of money or long term ongoing benefits.