The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

And here I thought that this was about religion.

"Unions were always bad" is real the GOPer line. The view you are attributing to them is way too nuanced.

Workers will always need collective action when dealing with the predations of ownership and management, but government regulation has largely taken the place of unions.

Late to the party but I chime in on the need to disagree. Maybe for some things this may be true but for healthcare it most certainly is not. Gov't is sucking up to pharma and insurance companies and screwing the medical folk in the trenches (Primary care, nurses, ancillary staff). In our state, even with the nurses unionized in many of the hospitals, the level of care is scary bad. The Gubmint not only allows this but actively pursues nurses who refuse OT despite unsafe conditions (Nurse charged with abandonment and LOST case when she refused to work past 18 hrs because she felt fatigue was impairing her judgement. Hospital chronically understaffed because they don't want to hire FT nurses.) In this case unions are the only recourse

 

[Jimjamesak]

And my experience is union supporters are staggeringly blind in many cases to the issues at least some unions have and to situations where unions do a lot of harm. Unions aren't all the same and some are better than others. Unlike you, I indicated my views were a mixed bag, whereas you seem to think unions are the 8th wonder of the world. Thus I put little stock in your views, to the limited extent you've said anything. Blind union loyalty to me is for the most part just another of many ways people protect what they see as theirs with little awareness of others.

I can go on for days about useless union politics and the like.

You've have stated that unions are unnecessary without any specific reasons. I have refuted this, citing numerous reasons including livable wage, health benefits, retirement benefits, and other things that would be unattainable without a union. You're only response is "unions are bad, I've dealt with unions and seen them do bad things, you're just a blindly loyal union person." All of what you've stated is just anti-union talking points with no substance. So where's the beef? Let's hear some specifics!

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Take a picture...jimjamesak and I are about to agree...

My job is required, by federal regulation, to exist, and remain a neutral party in our day to day operations. We cannot do that without union protection. I'm by no means a rah-rah union guy, but they can still be needed. In my (and Jim's) industry unions are very much needed and, trust me, you are all safer because of it.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I worked in the building trades for 12 years but not unionized, so I really don't have the personal experience you guys have. But it's all about maintaining some kind of balance of power, isn't it? And we know that you can't leave power unchecked (either way), so even if we are not living in a Steinbeck novel, unions still seem to serve a valuable function.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

My brother owns an HVAC company. He really likes the union as it's industry wide and not limited to just a single employer, as most employers in that market are small partnerships. It makes finding new hires easier, in his opinion, as they merely have to contact the union for a crop of candidates that are journeymen, apprentices, etc., unless he has someone specific in mind, and removes the personal haggling that he and his partner would otherwise have to make with each employee over wages, PTO, and such.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Joel Osteen vs. Martin Luther

http://adam4d.com/luther-vs-osteen/

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Question: in terms of the whole "prayer in public schools" thing, as I read it, a student's private prayer has not been banned. For example, if Junior wants to pray in a corner or pray over his meal, that's okay. However, a school employee/teacher cannot force Junior to pray or lead the class in prayer. Is that correct?

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Question: in terms of the whole "prayer in public schools" thing, as I read it, a student's private prayer has not been banned. For example, if Junior wants to pray in a corner or pray over his meal, that's okay. However, a school employee/teacher cannot force Junior to pray or lead the class in prayer. Is that correct?

Basically.

 

[unofan]

Question: in terms of the whole "prayer in public schools" thing, as I read it, a student's private prayer has not been banned. For example, if Junior wants to pray in a corner or pray over his meal, that's okay. However, a school employee/teacher cannot force Junior to pray or lead the class in prayer. Is that correct?

For the most part, yes. I could probably think of a hypothetical or two where student run prayer could be coercive enough to possibly run afoul, but not in anything similar to the situations you set forth.

For the record, comparative religion sections in social studies class are also ok.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Basically.

For the most part, yes. I could probably think of a hypothetical or two where student run prayer could be coercive enough to possibly run afoul, but not in anything similar to the situations you set forth.

For the record, comparative religion sections in social studies class are also ok.

Thank you. I'm hearing from hysterical Christians that prayer has been banned, their kid can't pray at all, that God has been kicked out of school, etc. Essentially, they're preoccupied with 1955.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Thank you. I'm hearing from hysterical Christians that prayer has been banned, their kid can't pray at all, that God has been kicked out of school, etc. Essentially, they're preoccupied with 1955.

Essentially they are morons. What they really want is for schools to enforce prayer upon students.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Essentially they are morons. What they really want is for schools to enforce prayer upon students.

The 10% who want to force school prayer because they're totalitarians have spooked the 90% who now believe little Johnnie isn't allowed to pray because they're gullible.

It's exactly the way the gun fondlers work.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/0...arbitration-scripture-is-the-rule-of-law.html
Ignoring the Federal Arbitration Act's impact on the forced nature of these things (don't get me started on the FAA), funny how people concern troll about Sharia Law when this is an actual burgeoning cottage industry.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Thank you. I'm hearing from hysterical Christians that prayer has been banned, their kid can't pray at all, that God has been kicked out of school, etc. Essentially, they're preoccupied with 1955.

Where do you live? Or rather where do these people live?

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Basically.

For the most part, yes. I could probably think of a hypothetical or two where student run prayer could be coercive enough to possibly run afoul, but not in anything similar to the situations you set forth.

For the record, comparative religion sections in social studies class are also ok.

Where do you live? Or rather where do these people live?

Western Michigan.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

My brother owns an HVAC company. He really likes the union as it's industry wide and not limited to just a single employer, as most employers in that market are small partnerships. It makes finding new hires easier, in his opinion, as they merely have to contact the union for a crop of candidates that are journeymen, apprentices, etc., unless he has someone specific in mind, and removes the personal haggling that he and his partner would otherwise have to make with each employee over wages, PTO, and such.

The building trades are one industry in which unions make (made?) a big difference compared to other industries: many unions provide on-the-job protections to members, provided that they have jobs to begin with. The building trades unions (at one time, at least) through their training and certification system, promoted their membership by saying quality work done right in the first place is well worth the "extra" expense compared to having things fall apart later on. Not only that, but the union certification helped members actually find jobs in construction since they could move from employer to employer and still have the union benefit package.

From my perspective, the biggest differential is between private-sector unions and public-sector unions. Private-sector unions (at one time, at least) were self-policing: they couldn't afford to allow members to do shoddy work, because that would reduce the value of union membership for everyone: trust once lost is really hard to regain.

Public-sector unions, on the other hand, are all about protecting the job of every member, no matter how shoddy a job they do, or even if they don't do any work at all whatsoever.

 

[unofan]

The building trades are one industry in which unions make (made?) a big difference compared to other industries: many unions provide on-the-job protections to members, provided that they have jobs to begin with. The building trades unions (at one time, at least) through their training and certification system, promoted their membership by saying quality work done right in the first place is well worth the "extra" expense compared to having things fall apart later on. Not only that, but the union certification helped members actually find jobs in construction since they could move from employer to employer and still have the union benefit package.

From my perspective, the biggest differential is between private-sector unions and public-sector unions. Private-sector unions (at one time, at least) were self-policing: they couldn't afford to allow members to do shoddy work, because that would reduce the value of union membership for everyone: trust once lost is really hard to regain.

Public-sector unions, on the other hand, are all about protecting the job of every member, no matter how shoddy a job they do, or even if they don't do any work at all whatsoever.

Of course, most companies' CEOs and Board of Directors don't go around trashing their workforces, either. In the context of state governments (or all government, really) anywhere from 40-60 percent of governors and legislators happily do so to win elections. Good luck getting qualified public servants without labor protections, especially since they are paid less than their private sector equivalents (excepting the lowest skilled workers, such as janitors. They do make more than their private sector counterparts).

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Rerum Novarum - Pope Leo XIII
Quadragesimo Anno - Pope Pius XI
Centesimus Annus - Pope St. John Paul II

All deal with the rights of labor and capital. Read the last one first. Where we should be and how we should act.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Of course, most companies' CEOs and Board of Directors don't go around trashing their workforces, either. In the context of state governments (or all government, really) anywhere from 40-60 percent of governors and legislators happily do so to win elections. Good luck getting qualified public servants without labor protections, especially since they are paid less than their private sector equivalents (excepting the lowest skilled workers, such as janitors. They do make more than their private sector counterparts).

I think there is a trade off we make with public sector unions, as a country.

Unions in the public sector are not ideal. In the private sector you have the give and take of the economic realities of the business. Employees may negotiate great wages and benefits from one employer in an industry, but as a result of that the employer may suffer economically due its competitor having lower fixed costs. After a period of time the wages and benefits kind of settle into a range that can be supported by the business, and are generally consistent industry wide. You don't really have the same dynamic in the public sector.

On the other hand, public sector unions really just replaced a much more evil system of job protection for public employees. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the halcyon days of Tammany Hall and the patronage rackets run by politicians. It should be pretty apparent to everyone that when given the opportunity to pay back financial supporters with plush government jobs or business, politicians of all stripes still can't jump fast enough. Do we really want our street maintenance guys forced to pony up cash to the local mayor candidate to protect the employee's job?

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Western Michigan.

Good 'ol WM, the Bible Belt of the North.

I still find it funny a region that's becoming quite prominent in brewing still had dry cities within the last decade.