The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

There are those that argue that the social fabric is falling apart now the shift is away from the belief that Jesus is divine.

From my little portion of the world I would say the previously tightly woven social fabric is now more of a mesh. Social mores have shifted from one generally agreed upon set of rules to a more egocentric (libertarian) focus. Previously social pressure was brought to bear on outliers to conform to aim at a common purpose. Nowit is political and social suicide to remind anyone they need to think of the greater social good. People argue about what the social good should be. Instead of one set of rules we have many sets- no consensus.

No matter what religion a society ascribes to I think in many cases it is the glue that holds a society together. The Higher Power, who ever that may be (Allah, God, Buddah, etc), trumps any human argument against what is deemed the rule.

(not eloquently put but pretend it was)

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

There are those that argue that the social fabric is falling apart now the shift is away from the belief that Jesus is divine.

From my little portion of the world I would say the previously tightly woven social fabric is now more of a mesh. Social mores have shifted from one generally agreed upon set of rules to a more egocentric (libertarian) focus. Previously social pressure was brought to bear on outliers to conform to aim at a common purpose. Nowit is political and social suicide to remind anyone they need to think of the greater social good. People argue about what the social good should be. Instead of one set of rules we have many sets- no consensus.

No matter what religion a society ascribes to I think in many cases it is the glue that holds a society together. The Higher Power, who ever that may be (Allah, God, Buddah, etc), trumps any human argument against what is deemed the rule.

(not eloquently put but pretend it was)

I believe the word you were looking for was libertine, not libertarian. Libertine is where the person looks into his or her inner desires and acts upon them.

 

[LynahFan]

Then Christianity collapses as it was based on a false promise. Ditto if they find the bones of Jesus.

Something will replace it, but there will be along period of religious and social anarchy as everything will be called into question.

I predicted this response from you.

I'm not nearly as pessimistic about Christianity's prospects in that scenario. First, never underestimate the power of denial. Second, like it or not, the political and legal forces are the dominant powers in the US, so society will be just fine. Third, I think there are millions of Christians who would continue to find value in the social and moral aspects of attending church (and we are nothing if not creatures of habit), so I don't even think membership would fall that far.

I'm still curious what effect there would be on 5mn_Major's personal beliefs, though. 5Mn?

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I believe the word you were looking for was libertine, not libertarian. Libertine is where the person looks into his or her inner desires and acts upon them.

Nope.

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

from their Platform statement. The focus is not on the common good (who ever gets to define that) but on personal good

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

If you're thinking I would avoid this...you're way off. It's outstanding questions like these that shed light on all this stuff more meaningfully than about anything else. Hope you're not disappointed though.

So let me ask you this: let's say that tomorrow, someone finds a "smoking gun" scroll that is shown to be 100% authentic where Jesus acknowledged that he is just a regular human being and gave instructions to his disciples to fake his resurrection to make it easier for them to spread his message.

Would that change how you think/feel about Christianity? Is the message dependent on the existence of God, or, at its core, is it really just an "independent code of conduct?" At that point, what would make your code of conduct any more valid than anyone else's?

First, I can't imagine the circumstance under which it would be 'smoking gun' proven. Is it written by a disciple? That's hard to prove (based on all of the related data we know today). Even so, its one data point...relative to the many contradictory data points that currently exist.

Sooo....if Jesus was a regular dude? Surprisingly, I would say He actually might have been a regular dude. Its possible. Does that change anything tangible about what's happened or the state of things today? No. Life to date is in the books.

And...what if it was somehow proven Jesus wasn't resurrected? Paul famously said 'if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith'. Now shocking for some...sorry Paul, I don't buy it. As I've said in the past, the Bible has many messages some not necessarily aligned. One must prioritize. The Gospels trump. Nothing Jesus said validates anything about 'a critical nature of the resurrection'. He just told us what to believe and how to behave. This may seem like I'm rigging things...but if Jesus is God then I don't know how you can't put Jesus messages first and everything I say should make perfect sense.

Remember I'm not a literalist. The Bible is full of analogs as an approach to teach. Its possible there are other analogies we are not aware of...this to even include Jesus being Son of God in name only. It comes down to the spirit of the message and its impact. As I've stated many times before, Jesus influence has changed behaviors throughout history. In a way similar to science, there has been enormous value add and via charity, support, etc continues to be so today and into the future.


Now taking it to an extreme that you did not...what if there was 100% proven total defamation of Jesus' character? As Jesus might have been human, He would not be beyond reproach. To answer...Jesus character and even Jesus Himself is actually not critical, because He may be the Son of God only in the sense He delivered the message. Its His story, the Word, and its impact on us. To sum, God is love and Jesus' Word defines Him/Her.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

If you're thinking I would avoid this...you're way off. It's outstanding questions like these that shed light on all this stuff more meaningfully than about anything else. Hope you're not disappointed though.



First, I can't imagine the circumstance under which it would be 'smoking gun' proven. Is it written by a disciple? That's hard to prove (based on all of the related data we know today). Even so, its one data point...relative to the many contradictory data points that currently exist.

Sooo....if Jesus was a regular dude? Surprisingly, I would say He actually might have been a regular dude. Its possible. Does that change anything tangible about what's happened or the state of things today? No. Life to date is in the books.

And...what if it was somehow proven Jesus wasn't resurrected? Paul famously said 'if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith'. Now shocking for some...sorry Paul, I don't buy it. As I've said in the past, the Bible has many messages some not necessarily aligned. One must prioritize. The Gospels trump. Nothing Jesus said validates anything about 'a critical nature of the resurrection'. He just told us what to believe and how to behave. This may seem like I'm rigging things...but if Jesus is God then I don't know how you can't put Jesus messages first and everything I say should make perfect sense.

Remember I'm not a literalist. The Bible is full of analogs as an approach to teach. Its possible there are other analogies we are not aware of...this to even include Jesus being Son of God in name only. It comes down to the spirit of the message and its impact. As I've stated many times before, Jesus influence has changed behaviors throughout history. In a way similar to science, there has been enormous value add and via charity, support, etc continues to be so today and into the future.


Now taking it to an extreme that you did not...what if there was 100% proven total defamation of Jesus' character? As Jesus might have been human, He would not be beyond reproach. To answer...Jesus character and even Jesus Himself is actually not critical, because He may be the Son of God only in the sense He delivered the message. Its His story, the Word, and its impact on us. To sum, God is love and Jesus' Word defines Him/Her.

A very worthwhile response, IMO.

 

[LynahFan]

A very worthwhile response, IMO.

Definitely. Been offline this weekend, have a couple follow-ups I will post, but thanks for taking my question seriously, 5Mn.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

According to my dad, who apparently fancies himself a SuperChristian, "unions are against the law of God."

Bob, Timothy, joe.... where in the Bible does it say that?

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

It says the man needs to go get help in any religion. He sounds like he is really struggling lately

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

According to my dad, who apparently fancies himself a SuperChristian, "unions are against the law of God."

Bob, Timothy, joe.... where in the Bible does it say that?

Dunno about the Bible, but Pope Leo XIII had it covered in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum - Rights and Duties of Labor and Capital

I believe the Romans had a slightly different view.

-------------------------

And, what happened to tolerance???

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

According to my dad, who apparently fancies himself a SuperChristian, "unions are against the law of God."

Bob, Timothy, joe.... where in the Bible does it say that?

Unions aren't spoken about in any fashion in the Bible and haven't even existed until pretty recently in the big scope of history. From this and other postings you've made about things like this your dad has said, it sounds like he's mixed a lot of modern political/social issues in with what is actually said in the Bible, a fairly common thing these days unfortunately. My own opinion is that unions did a ton of good stuff when they came about but often are little more these days than another special interest group grasping theirs as tightly as they can regardless of the circumstances around them. If someone fancies themselves a "SuperChristian", to me that's a bit of a red flag right there and very different that the character of Jesus I see spoken of in the Bible.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

My own opinion is that unions did a ton of good stuff when they came about but often are little more these days than another special interest group grasping theirs as tightly as they can regardless of the circumstances around them.

I agree with this completely.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Nicely done.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I have to wonder how many so-called Satanists are just in the church to get their jollies from trolling white, suburban 'Murica.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Unions? The Bible is centered on 'ends' vs. 'means'. With the exception of Proverbs, the Bible is concerned with what the goal or outcome should be...rather than how to get there. Again putting Jesus first, there is little discussion of the means to accomplish goals.

Does the Bible talk about the 'means' to accomplish goals? Certainly. But clearly the purpose is to show how there are many paths to get there and to illustrate the lengths folks should go in order to 'do the right thing'.

So IMO the Bible does not support the use of nor really the elimination of unions. Does it help many? Yeah. Does it hurt many? Probably indirectly. So if unions are a net wash in accomplishing the goals of helping those who need it...then there is no Biblical backing for either policy. My best guess is that they should be uncommon and situational.

 

[Jimjamesak]

My own opinion is that unions did a ton of good stuff when they came about but often are little more these days than another special interest group grasping theirs as tightly as they can regardless of the circumstances around them.

So sayeth the people who never have or never will be in a union.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I have to wonder how many so-called Satanists are just in the church to get their jollies from trolling white, suburban 'Murica.

99%.

Satanism: encroachment of church on state :: Flying Spaghetti Monster : Creationism

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So sayeth the people who never have or never will be in a union.

So only those who are in a union and benefit from it can deign to have an opinion on it? Seriously?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I have to wonder how many so-called Satanists are just in the church to get their jollies from trolling white, suburban 'Murica.

These guys, on the other hand, are following a sincere time-honored religious impulse.

 

[Jimjamesak]

So only those who are in a union and benefit from it can deign to have an opinion on it? Seriously?

At least educate yourself a bit before you form an opinion.

Listen, the "unions are useless in today's age" is complete GOP approved, 1 percenter BS. My company pays me a good wage and provides good benefits and a good retirement not out of the goodness of their hearts but because we make sure we get it by having a union. Job security is another nice thing. It's very nice to know I won't get fired because some POS piece of equipment failed and hit a plane.

It may be all fine and dandy for the white collar workers of the world but us blue collar folks still need them.