The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Funny. You were the one speaking for agnostics. Agnostics are out of the conversation where they should be.



Skeptics here don't believe in God and they argue about it. And the sample size is more than one or two. If you have a problem with the skeptic label...then should I just change the label to a collective 'you'? Loud unbelievers...don't believe in God and search out arguments about it. But I'm not wasting time debating labels.

I'm not debating labels, it strictly has to do with how you seem to think we all fit into the same categorization and how we all spend time thinking about some Pixieland delusions.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'm not debating labels, it strictly has to do with how you seem to think we all fit into the same categorization and how we all spend time thinking about some Pixieland delusions.

Like we don't hear that all the time on this thread.

So here's an honest question. If there was a nonbeliever/skeptic/atheist thread, would there be any Christians posting there? I can answer...rarely if ever. But this religion thread has more skeptics than Christians. Any thought as to why? What does that say about the two groups?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Like we don't hear that all the time on this thread.

So here's an honest question. If there was a nonbeliever/skeptic/atheist thread, would there be any Christians posting there? I can answer...rarely if ever. But this religion thread has more skeptics than Christians. Any thought as to why? What does that say about the two groups?

I don't know everybody's motives for posting in this thread, I can only tell you that I enjoy reading others' points of view of things which completely baffle me - namely, religious beliefs. It wasn't until one of the Christian posters started making grand assertions as to what people like me believe that I started posting replies.

If a thread devoted to atheists were created, there wouldn't be much of a thread as we don't have this ONE book that has MANY different variations that all claim to be THE SINGLE voice to which we obey. The thread would start off as, There is no God or gods. Anybody got a beer? I'm going to be the drinking thread if anybody needs anything. At the same time, the thread would end with the post, There is no God or gods. Anybody got a beer? I'm going to be the drinking thread if anybody needs anything.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So here's an honest question. If there was a nonbeliever/skeptic/atheist thread, would there be any Christians posting there? I can answer...rarely if ever. But this religion thread has more skeptics than Christians. Any thought as to why? What does that say about the two groups?

to paraphrase Bertrand Russell: if you are a faithful practicing Christian and it turns out there is no God, you are still a winner, because you've lived a good moral life and provided benefit and comfort to your fellow humans and to your community and to society at large. So you might as well act "as if" there were a God because it doesn't cost you anything.

Let's say most atheists / agnostics also live a good moral life and provide benefit and comfort to their fellow humans and to their community and to society at large as well. If it turns out that there is a God, why should that bother them, since in their behavior they also followed God's precepts anyway? You'd think God would say to them, "good job", no?

If you cannot tell whether a person believes in God or not from observing their behavior, you'd think everyone would say, "keep up the good work" no matter what internal motivation leads them to behave that way.


It does seem like there is a subset of atheists these days who are more zealous in their attempts to convert believers than there are believers with missionary zeal who seek to convert unbelievers.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Let's say most atheists / agnostics also live a good moral life and provide benefit and comfort to their fellow humans and to their community and to society at large as well. If it turns out that there is a God, why should that bother them, since in their behavior they also followed God's precepts anyway? You'd think God would say to them, "good job", no?

According to 5mn_Major, that's unpossible. We don't exist.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I don't know everybody's motives for posting in this thread, I can only tell you that I enjoy reading others' points of view of things which completely baffle me - namely, religious beliefs.

Similarly, what reasons do atheists have for living a moral and ethical life?

The answer I generally get: "because it's the right thing to do."

Okay, fair enough. Why is it the right thing to do?

"um, because that's just how the world works."


which sounds to me like the whole thing is an argument over semantics. What believers call "God" is the source from which moral and ethical behavior springs; while atheists say that the source of moral and ethical behavior is part of the natural order of things (as far as I can tell).


Every culture throughout the world and throughout history, as far as I can tell, has had one kind of religion or other, so there is a deeply-rooted desire to belong to something greater than oneself. That desire expresses itself in different ways, while the desire itself seems to be universal.

Even in your reply # 543, you are going out to get a beer with someone else, you are not drinking alone in your basement!!




PS I do not consider myself to be a Christian, a mixture of Taoism and Buddhism is more my style. We are embedded in a cycle of life that has its own rhythms and a living a good life aligns itself with those rhythms.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

None of this makes any sense to me. My impression is there are believers who have a chip on their shoulder and atheists who have a chip on their shoulder, and we should let them fight among themselves while the rest of us simply live. Philosophical discussions about concepts of god are interesting. Finding common cause between believers and non-believers (the point of this thread) is useful and fecund. But dogfights that reduce to "Yay me!", "No! Yay ME!!!" are just the argle bargle of sports fans who have gone beyond fandom and have a sizable portion of their self-esteem riding on the outcome. There have been a few of them (Lewis, Chesterton on even numbered days) who are worth listening to, but not many.

 

[unofan]

Funny. You were the one speaking for agnostics. Agnostics are out of the conversation where they should be.

All I said was that agnostics bring plenty to the table in terms of this discussion. If that counts as speaking for them, well, then pretty much all of us are speaking out off our asses on everything on this board.

If you want the lapsed Catholic position, I am happy to provide that.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Can you show me some posts that validate the value of skeptics? Nobody's claiming skeptics are empty individuals.

Seriously? Do you read your own posts? "Skeptics have no value...but nobody says they're empty."

Yet, being a skeptic has nothing to do any other replacement activity...they are totally independent. The nature of being a skeptic means one thing: God does not exist.

That is not even close to the "nature" of being a skeptic. That would be like saying that your nature is based on the fact that you don't think the FSM exists.

What is its code? Oh...you love science? Well others love science. You love art? That just makes you an art lover.

And yet, you come here and espouse how the most important thing about Christianity is the teaching of Jesus. I can't think of a single parable or instruction he gave regarding how to live your life that I disagree with - the beatitudes, the workers in the vineyard, love your neighbor - all fantastic, beautiful advice on how to live a good life. So, what does agreement with those teachings make me? A good human being. That's it. Plenty of skeptics believe those exact same things, so that's not unique to Christians.

What do skeptics stand for? You wouldn't get the same answer from any two people...because there is nothing of substance that directly comes from atheism/skepticism.

You're joking, right? The next time I get the same answer from 2 Christians will be the first.

But even then, skeptics have no proof.

Oh, if having proof is the standard for being allowed in this thread, you won't mind showing yours?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

If you want the lapsed Catholic position, I am happy to provide that.

You'll have to beat me in a playoff, first.

 

[unofan]

Like we don't hear that all the time on this thread.

So here's an honest question. If there was a nonbeliever/skeptic/atheist thread, would there be any Christians posting there? I can answer...rarely if ever. But this religion thread has more skeptics than Christians. Any thought as to why? What does that say about the two groups?

You're on a discussion forum filled with college graduates, including an absurdly high percentage of Ivy League graduates, and you have to wonder why people are getting into pedantic debates as an intellectual exercise to kill time during the work day?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

You're on a discussion forum filled with college graduates, including an absurdly high percentage of Ivy League graduates, and you have to wonder why people are getting into pedantic debates as an intellectual exercise to kill time during the work day?

Personally, I do it for the trim. My musing brings all the girls to the yard.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Let's say most atheists / agnostics also live a good moral life and provide benefit and comfort to their fellow humans and to their community and to society at large as well. If it turns out that there is a God, why should that bother them, since in their behavior they also followed God's precepts anyway? You'd think God would say to them, "good job", no?

If you cannot tell whether a person believes in God or not from observing their behavior, you'd think everyone would say, "keep up the good work" no matter what internal motivation leads them to behave that way.

It does seem like there is a subset of atheists these days who are more zealous in their attempts to convert believers than there are believers with missionary zeal who seek to convert unbelievers.

which sounds to me like the whole thing is an argument over semantics. What believers call "God" is the source from which moral and ethical behavior springs; while atheists say that the source of moral and ethical behavior is part of the natural order of things (as far as I can tell).

Many skeptics are very good people...like Christians. I agree. Anyone who steps up and does good deserves applause. But my point all along is that atheism/skepticism as a philosophy brings nothing by itself. Skeptics might adopt an entirely independent code of conduct (as might anyone else) or they might not. They should be applauded if they do. But there is nothing in skepticism that directly leads one to a do good moral code or apparently other constructive outcomes. All I've done is point that out about skepticism. While it hasn't led to skeptics to defend their position...it seems to upset a lot of skeptics coming here looking to initiate negativity on Christianity.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

You're on a discussion forum filled with college graduates, including an absurdly high percentage of Ivy League graduates, and you have to wonder why people are getting into pedantic debates as an intellectual exercise to kill time during the work day?

I wonder about a lot of things...why said discussions occur is not one of them.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Many skeptics are very good people...like Christians. I agree. Anyone who steps up and does good deserves applause. But my point all along is that atheism/skepticism as a philosophy brings nothing by itself. Skeptics might adopt an entirely independent code of conduct (as might anyone else) or they might not. They should be applauded if they do. But there is nothing in skepticism that directly leads one to a do good moral code or apparently other constructive outcomes. All I've done is point that out about skepticism. While it hasn't led to skeptics to defend their position...it seems to upset a lot of skeptics coming here looking to initiate negativity on Christianity.

So let me ask you this: let's say that tomorrow, someone finds a "smoking gun" scroll that is shown to be 100% authentic where Jesus acknowledged that he is just a regular human being and gave instructions to his disciples to fake his resurrection to make it easier for them to spread his message.

Would that change how you think/feel about Christianity? Is the message dependent on the existence of God, or, at its core, is it really just an "independent code of conduct?" At that point, what would make your code of conduct any more valid than anyone else's?

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So let me ask you this: let's say that tomorrow, someone finds a "smoking gun" scroll that is shown to be 100% authentic where Jesus acknowledged that he is just a regular human being and gave instructions to his disciples to fake his resurrection to make it easier for them to spread his message.

Would that change how you think/feel about Christianity? Is the message dependent on the existence of God, or, at its core, is it really just an "independent code of conduct?" At that point, what would make your code of conduct any more valid than anyone else's?

Then Christianity collapses as it was based on a false promise. Ditto if they find the bones of Jesus.

Something will replace it, but there will be along period of religious and social anarchy as everything will be called into question.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Anyone who steps up and does good deserves applause.

as far as the rest of us are concerned, isn't that sufficient right there? why go further?

But my point all along is that atheism/skepticism as a philosophy brings nothing by itself.

for you, maybe, maybe not so for others.

I alternate between skepticism, open-mindedness*, and mysticism, as each viewpoint brings clarity to certain areas where the others do not.




* but not so open that my brains fall out....

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

these debates about which religion is the "right" one reminds me of the following story.....



The time: Middle Ages
The place: the court of the Vatican


The Pope has a nimble and inquisitive mind. He is annoyed with all the sycophants in attendance, he wants a real theological debate. Back then, Jews were viewed with suspicion and distrust, which made it hard for them to find a decent job. The Pope spies the Jewish janitor and decides to engage him in debate:

"You there," he says. "Come over here." The janitor looks around, realizes he's the "you" and comes over to the Pope.

The Pope spreads his arms wide. The janitor emphatically points his finger toward the ground.

The Pope then holds up one finger. The janitor holds up three fingers.

The Pope muses for awhile, then reaches into his robe and pulls out an apple. The janitor reaches into his lunch bucket and pulls out a matzo. The Pope smiles, says, "Thank you, that's all." The janitor shakes his head and walks away and goes back to his work.


The Papal Court clusters around the Pope. "What just happened?"

The Pope replies, "I started out by saying to him, 'God is all around us.' He responded, 'Yes, but the Devil is down below.' Then I said, 'Your people believe there is one God.' and he replied, 'yes, and your people believe He has three manifestations.' Finally, I tried to trick him into the heresy that the world was round, and he correctly replied, 'no, the world is flat.' " The court gasped at the brilliance upon display.



When the janitor returned home after work, his wife asked him, "honey, how did your day go?" He replies, "Most of it was the normal stuff, except for one weird session with the Pope. First, he calls me over, then he says to me, 'Get out of here!' I tell him, 'no, I'm staying.' So then he goes 'Up yours!' and so I tell him, 'up yours three times.' Then he pulls out his lunch, I pull out my lunch, and he lets me go back to work."

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

: puts on crash helmet:
Call me confused but this is a discussion thread titled Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance. If everyone agreed and there were no skeptics what would be the point? If you know you are right and skeptics are wrong while being willfully clueless why bother to engage?

and Kep- sometimes your posts make my brain hurt!!

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Something will replace it, but there will be along period of religious and social anarchy as everything will be called into question.

I don't think at this point there would be social anarchy. On how much of the world's surface is the social fabric held together by the belief that Jesus was divine? Portions of Africa (where society is already pretty anarchic) and some rural stretches in the First World (note: UWM now regards this term as a micro-aggression). But most other places "prayins for Sundays."

Now, call into question the divinity of the US Dollar, and chaos will hurl fire upon the Earth!