The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

At least educate yourself a bit before you form an opinion.

Listen, the "unions are useless in today's age" is complete GOP approved, 1 percenter BS. My company pays me a good wage and provides good benefits and a good retirement not out of the goodness of their hearts but because we make sure we get it by having a union. Job security is another nice thing. It's very nice to know I won't get fired because some POS piece of equipment failed and hit a plane.

It may be all fine and dandy for the white collar workers of the world but us blue collar folks still need them.

Actually my opinions have been formed primarily via my own interactions with unions and people I know who have been in unions. And of course I said they "often" aren't useful, meaning at times they still can be. But keep assuming things that aren't true if you must think that unions are the 8th wonder of the world. Good grief, it's not often Kepler and I are in lock step on something.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

At least educate yourself a bit before you form an opinion.

Listen, the "unions are useless in today's age" is complete GOP approved, 1 percenter BS. My company pays me a good wage and provides good benefits and a good retirement not out of the goodness of their hearts but because we make sure we get it by having a union. Job security is another nice thing. It's very nice to know I won't get fired because some POS piece of equipment failed and hit a plane.

It may be all fine and dandy for the white collar workers of the world but us blue collar folks still need them.

"Unions were always bad" is real the GOPer line. The view you are attributing to them is way too nuanced.

Workers will always need collective action when dealing with the predations of ownership and management, but government regulation has largely taken the place of unions.

 

[LynahFan]

At least educate yourself a bit before you form an opinion.

Listen, the "unions are useless in today's age" is complete GOP approved, 1 percenter BS. My company pays me a good wage and provides good benefits and a good retirement not out of the goodness of their hearts but because we make sure we get it by having a union. Job security is another nice thing. It's very nice to know I won't get fired because some POS piece of equipment failed and hit a plane.

It may be all fine and dandy for the white collar workers of the world but us blue collar folks still need them.

My company pays me, not out of the goodness of their hearts but because I create value for them at a competitive market cost. The minute I can't do that is the minute they *ought* to fire me.

 

[unofan]

My company pays me, not out of the goodness of their hearts but because I create value for them at a competitive market cost. The minute I can't do that is the minute they *ought* to fire me.

And you only work for your company because they pay you, not out of the goodness of your heart. The minute they don't pay you what you're worth, you ought to quit.

The problem is that the dynamic is not equal, and most people need jobs more than most companies need any individual employee.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

My company pays me, not out of the goodness of their hearts but because I create value for them at a competitive market cost. The minute I can't do that is the minute they *ought* to fire me.

That's not a surprising attitude because you're coming from a position of much greater equality with ownership and management because you have highly sought after skills. The vast majority of workers have zero leverage and essentially live at the whim of ownership. Collective action or government stewardship is essential to level the playing field -- pick one.

Business exists for the benefit of people, not the other way around. A perfectly efficient world run according to the cold equations of optimal return is a hellish dystopia for almost everybody but the very talented or the very privileged, and frankly we're not going to run the world solely for their benefit. Or to put it in the stark terms you use above, the minute capitalism can't provide a decent living for the majority of citizens is the minute we *ought* to fire it.

 

[Jimjamesak]

"Unions were always bad" is real the GOPer line. The view you are attributing to them is way too nuanced.

Workers will always need collective action when dealing with the predations of ownership and management, but government regulation has largely taken the place of unions.

And you're naive as * if you believe government regulations have taken over unions' place. Especially surprising for someone who talks about how politicians are bought by corporations. Government regulations can be rolled back. And lawsuits don't get people their jobs back or feed their families. I'll just stick with paying my dues.

You and Bob fall into the ivory tower view. You both speak as people who have never dealt with the reality of the working class world.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

And you're naive as * if you believe government regulations have taken over unions' place. Especially surprising for someone who talks about how politicians are bought by corporations. Government regulations can be rolled back. And lawsuits don't get people their jobs back or feed their families. I'll just stick with paying my dues.

You and Bob fall into the ivory tower view. You both speak as people who have never dealt with the reality of the working class world.

You seem to live in a union ivory tower, rather than the real world.

 

[Jimjamesak]

You seem to live in a union ivory tower, rather than the real world.

Nice comeback.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That's not a surprising attitude because you're coming from a position of much greater equality with ownership and management because you have highly sought after skills. The vast majority of workers have zero leverage and essentially live at the whim of ownership. Collective action or government stewardship is essential to level the playing field -- pick one.

Business exists for the benefit of people, not the other way around. A perfectly efficient world run according to the cold equations of optimal return is a hellish dystopia for almost everybody but the very talented or the very privileged, and frankly we're not going to run the world solely for their benefit. Or to put it in the stark terms you use above, the minute capitalism can't provide a decent living for the majority of citizens is the minute we *ought* to fire it.

Yeah, well, wait until your skills are easily farmed out to India. Then it doesn't matter anymore "How Skilled" you are.

 

[Jimjamesak]

My company pays me, not out of the goodness of their hearts but because I create value for them at a competitive market cost. The minute I can't do that is the minute they *ought* to fire me.

Which is great, except for the vast majority of workers who's options are "you can have these peanuts or * off." Or better yet the "you've done your job really well but we've found a factory that'll pay kids 10 cents a day to make them instead. Good luck!"

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

And you're naive as * if you believe government regulations have taken over unions' place. Especially surprising for someone who talks about how politicians are bought by corporations. Government regulations can be rolled back. And lawsuits don't get people their jobs back or feed their families. I'll just stick with paying my dues.

You and Bob fall into the ivory tower view. You both speak as people who have never dealt with the reality of the working class world.

I am not against unions. I do think they have been supplanted in part by government regulation, and in some cases they have become corrupt. I am all for them continuing to exist, however, since as you point out government is typically on the side of the rich. Ideally, we have unions and consumer protection groups at the table with management. These three groups often each have competing, legitimate interests, and negotiation is the best way to come to a compromise.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Nice comeback.

Better than your repeats of saying we don't know what we're talking about.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Better than your repeats of saying we don't know what we're talking about.

Well when it's the truth...

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Yeah, well, wait until your skills are easily farmed out to India. Then it doesn't matter anymore "How Skilled" you are.

That sword is sharply double edged. Globalization makes the rise of global labor as an organized force more likely. In the short run, globalization has been great for the poorest citizens of the world and great for capital, but terrible for first world labor. But what we're seeing has happened again and again in history as communications and transportation made goods and services more portable. This time, capital has run out of planet and the rise of opposition to the excesses of ownership in a globalized economy will likewise be global -- it might even supplant the nation-state.

Capital went national in the 18th century; labor caught up in the 19th century. Capital jumped ahead by going multi-national in the 20th century. Labor will catch up again in the 21st. And that's it, because even if capital goes interplanetary it takes interplanetary labor with it unless they discover Third Worlds out there.

Capitalism was a ladder that got us from this to this, but it's running out of room, and thus running out of time. The next ladder will be something we have as little an linking of as manorial farmers had of industrial capitalism.

 

[joecct]

That sword is sharply double edged. Globalization makes the rise of global labor as an organized force more likely. In the short run, globalization has been great for the poorest citizens of the world and great for capital, but terrible for first world labor. But what we're seeing has happened again and again in history as communications and transportation made goods and services more portable. This time, capital has run out of planet and the rise of opposition to the excesses of ownership in a globalized economy will likewise be global -- it might even supplant the nation-state.

Capital went national in the 18th century; labor caught up in the 19th century. Capital jumped ahead by going multi-national in the 20th century. Labor will catch up again in the 21st. And that's it, because even if capital goes interplanetary it takes interplanetary labor with it unless they discover Third Worlds out there.

How come every time I read one of these, my mind gives it an Eric Idle accent?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

How come every time I read one of these, my mind gives it an Eric Idle accent?

Let me help.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Well when it's the truth...

One of the stupidest things I see around here is someone claiming someone else knows nothing about a subject, when the person making the claim knows little or nothing about the person they are saying that about. You don't know me or my experiences, or you'd know you're clueless in making this claim. Just because someone has a different point of view than you doesn't mean they know nothing. But keep bleating the same thing over and over if you can't help yourself.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

One of the stupidest things I see around here is someone claiming someone else knows nothing about a subject, when the person making the claim knows little or nothing about the person they are saying that about.

You know what Socrates would say to that. "I know nothing except I know nothing and neither do you."

Then again, how'd that work out for him?

 

[Jimjamesak]

One of the stupidest things I see around here is someone claiming someone else knows nothing about a subject, when the person making the claim knows little or nothing about the person they are saying that about. You don't know me or my experiences, or you'd know you're clueless in making this claim. Just because someone has a different point of view than you doesn't mean they know nothing. But keep bleating the same thing over and over if you can't help yourself.

And I'm saying your point of view is bunk. Since you seem to want to rid what I consider to be a very integral part of my life, I'm naturally a little defensive about it. I have dealt with so many ignorant attacks on unions that I default to derision. To be honest, you have brought nothing as a counterpoint. Well, except "You don't know me! I know many things!" So please, get a little more specific about your dealings with unions and we can have a discussion.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

And I'm saying your point of view is bunk. Since you seem to want to rid what I consider to be a very integral part of my life, I'm naturally a little defensive about it. I have dealt with so many ignorant attacks on unions that I default to derision. To be honest, you have brought nothing as a counterpoint. Well, except "You don't know me! I know many things!" So please, get a little more specific about your dealings with unions and we can have a discussion.

And my experience is union supporters are staggeringly blind in many cases to the issues at least some unions have and to situations where unions do a lot of harm. Unions aren't all the same and some are better than others. Unlike you, I indicated my views were a mixed bag, whereas you seem to think unions are the 8th wonder of the world. Thus I put little stock in your views, to the limited extent you've said anything. Blind union loyalty to me is for the most part just another of many ways people protect what they see as theirs with little awareness of others.