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The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

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Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

unofan said:
Gee, I can't imagine why my wife left the church almost as soon as she could think for herself with commands like that...
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But Bob says...
Bob Gray said:
Compared to any documents put out by any other civilization, the bible, both old and new testament, were extraordinarily forward thinking regarding women, etc.
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BTW the Duggar mess is super amusing and horrifying at the same time. While also being topical to this kind of discussion.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

unofan said:
Gee, I can't imagine why my wife left the church almost as soon as she could think for herself with commands like that...
Click to expand...

Women and children are just so much inventory in patriarchal societies. You raped my daughter? Well, give me thirty chickens for the maidenhead and we're even. Oh, and we'll have to kill her, of course. The slut. You? Nah, you can go, but don't forget those chickens...

Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic. Roman society was so misogynistic it kinda goes beyond the word -- like calling the Civil War South "racist," it doesn't really capture the spirit of the thing, Reg. To the extent that early Christians were in any way "reformers" I'm sure women were pretty low on their To Do list, and in any case we should always remember that those people were completely convinced that Jesus was coming back in their lifetime. They weren't doing any long-term social engineering, they were getting ready for Judgment Day like it was Black Friday.
 
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Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Foxton said:
BTW the Duggar mess is super amusing and horrifying at the same time. While also being topical to this kind of discussion.
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Even though the No True Christian game is always played whenever one of these twerps gets hoisted by his sanctimonious petard, in this case I suspect it's true. Those people are just grifters -- they're Palins without the bastardy. If you're playing the OH GOD LOOK AT ME I'M SO RELIGIOUS!!!11! game on the boob tube, you're not a believer, you're just a snake. Christians know you don't flaunt your faith like a jackwagon -- that's just another form of vanity. I'm pretty sure Jesus et al. said if you're gonna pray go do it in the closet and don't make it into a red carpet event.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Women and children are just so much inventory in patriarchal societies. You raped my daughter? Well, give me thirty chickens for the maidenhead and we're even. Oh, and we'll have to kill her, of course. The slut. You? Nah, you can go, but don't forget those chickens...

Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic. Roman society was so misogynistic it kinda goes beyond the word -- like calling the Civil War South "racist," it doesn't really capture the spirit of the thing, Reg. To the extent that early Christians were in any way "reformers" I'm sure women were pretty low on their To Do list, and in any case we should always remember that those people were completely convinced that Jesus was coming back in their lifetime. They weren't doing any long-term social engineering, they were getting ready for Judgment Day like it was Black Friday.
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It wasn't about being a reformer, it was about following Christ's teachings and nature, which inherently would lead to treating all folks, including women, etc. with more respect, etc. than would otherwise be the case in the Roman Empire or elsewhere in the ancient world.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Even though the No True Christian game is always played whenever one of these twerps gets hoisted by his sanctimonious petard, in this case I suspect it's true. Those people are just grifters -- they're Palins without the bastardy. If you're playing the OH GOD LOOK AT ME I'M SO RELIGIOUS!!!11! game on the boob tube, you're not a believer, you're just a snake. Christians know you don't flaunt your faith like a jackwagon -- that's just another form of vanity. I'm pretty sure Jesus et al. said if you're gonna pray go do it in the closet and don't make it into a red carpet event.
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good observation. I think Christ preached pretty strongly against posting your personal prayers on Facebook and Youtube also. I liked your earlier categorization of "Professional Christians" as being far removed from the spirit of Christianity. Christ called the showoffs "whitewashed tombs: Nice to look at, but full of dead men's bones."
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Bob Gray said:
It wasn't about being a reformer, it was about following Christ's teachings and nature, which inherently would lead to treating all folks, including women, etc. with more respect, etc. than would otherwise be the case in the Roman Empire or elsewhere in the ancient world.
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There is certainly a kernel of truth to that. The dignity of all souls, and all souls being equal in the eyes of God, implies respect and dignity be extended to everyone. Too bad that was almost completely ignored until the 19th century.

(Earlier if you were one of the heretics in Europe that went around letting women preach and screw whoever they wanted.)

(But even that's only as early as say the 13th C, and the church massacred them)

(And to be fair, those folks were not exactly charming.)

(Most, anyway.)

(A few were OK.)

(Maybe.)
 
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Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic.
Click to expand...

Skeptics love this stuff. The Christian glass is always 10% empty as they have no glass of their own. As fact would actually have it, all of medieval society was biased against women. Any arguments? http://www.historyofwomen.org/oppression.html Yet in the skeptic world view somehow Christianity is to blame.

This makes Jesus entirely equal treatment of women as quite uncommon by any standards reaching into the 20th century. Although Christianity created a host of other benefits in that era, it didn't correct medieval society's treatment of women. It took another few hundred years for Christianity to apply pressure on equal treatment for women. The Woman’s Christian Temperance Union (WCTU) was founded in November 1874 in Cleveland, Ohio. After Frances Willard took over leadership in 1879, the WCTU became one of the largest and most influential women’s groups of the 19th century by expanding its platform to campaign for labor laws, prison reform and suffrage. Not unsurprisingly the rest of society got into the act as the age of women's progress began in about 1890.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

5mn_Major said:
Skeptics love this stuff. The Christian glass is always 10% empty as they have no glass of their own. As fact would actually have it, all of medieval society was biased against women. Any arguments? http://www.historyofwomen.org/oppression.html Yet in the skeptic world view somehow Christianity is to blame.
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Do you honestly, seriously not see that the point I made was exactly the point you made?

It's gotta be either my writing skills or your reading skills. :rolleyes:
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Do you honestly, seriously not see that the point I made was exactly the point you made?

It's gotta be either my writing skills or your reading skills. :rolleyes:
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Sorry if I missed the positive spin...'Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic'. Anyone else see it?
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

5mn_Major said:
Sorry if I missed the positive spin...'Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic'. Anyone else see it?
Click to expand...
I don't see how what Kepler is saying would be thought of as the same as what you're saying, but my ability to understand Keplerspeak seems to decline by the day.

Not to mention that Christians were a horrifically persecuted minority in the Roman Empire and were very much outsiders, not the accommodating types at all, other than they didn't have open insurrection like the Jews did at times.

Seriously this is just one of many cases where Kepler's history on things just really really is, uh, different.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Kepler said:
Women and children are just so much inventory in patriarchal societies. You raped my daughter? Well, give me thirty chickens for the maidenhead and we're even. Oh, and we'll have to kill her, of course. The slut. You? Nah, you can go, but don't forget those chickens...

Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic. Roman society was so misogynistic it kinda goes beyond the word -- like calling the Civil War South "racist," it doesn't really capture the spirit of the thing, Reg. To the extent that early Christians were in any way "reformers" I'm sure women were pretty low on their To Do list, and in any case we should always remember that those people were completely convinced that Jesus was coming back in their lifetime. They weren't doing any long-term social engineering, they were getting ready for Judgment Day like it was Black Friday.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that doesn't explain why a modern day follower, in an age and country where women are (rightfully) seen as the equals of men, quotes that passage and then says, the role of women is "cut and dried."

Fark that shiat. If you want to tell my wife that God says to shut up and make babies, good luck with that.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

5mn_Major said:
Sorry if I missed the positive spin...'Christians bent over backwards to accommodate the rituals and power structures of Roman society, and treating women like garbage may have been just another tactic'. Anyone else see it?
Click to expand...

Yep. He's saying Christians did what they could with what they had.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

unofan said:
Yep. He's saying Christians did what they could with what they had.
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And that Christians adopted certain attitudes in blending with Roman society, either consciously or unconsciously. Ergo, the rampant misogyny practiced for 1000+ years in European Christian civilizations may not be because they were Christian, but because they existed through times in which genuine respect for women was literally unthinkable, by anyone.

I didn't think it was that hard to follow, actually.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

unofan said:
Yeah, but that doesn't explain why a modern day follower, in an age and country where women are (rightfully) seen as the equals of men, quotes that passage and then says, the role of women is "cut and dried."

Fark that shiat. If you want to tell my wife that God says to shut up and make babies, good luck with that.
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When I bring up the subject of what is necessary to make babies with my wife, it's not so much as a command backed by an order from God as it is a supplication to God.

Just between you and me.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

burd said:
When I bring up the subject of what is necessary to make babies with my wife, it's not so much as a command backed by an order from God as it is a supplication to God.
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Try offerings. I find it works.
 
Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

burd said:
I'll try that. I always struggle with whether to make eye contact before the decision is rendered.
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An ablution now and then wouldn't hurt either. Coworkers appreciate it too.
 
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