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The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

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Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Ok, you went all the way back to the pre-ncaa days. I was just thinking about the modern era that started with the NCAA tournament in 1947-48 season.

Correct. If we looked at just '48-present, North Dakota is still ahead of Wisconsin, but it's by less than a hundreth of a point/season. Michigan is actually BARELY #1 when take out pre-'48 results. Wisconsin loses about a dozen points due to pre-'48 success.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

How can you use all of those seasons if there were not championships before 1948?

Their wasn't anything really, no conferences, no tournaments, it isn't really going to have much of a impact.

I would have used 1948 as a baseline year 0, but this is FS23's rankings and he can do whatever he wants.

If it is the greatest program of all time you'd also have to include all of the teams who played prior to 1955 when the teams were separated into divisions and all of the defunct teams.
 
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Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

If it is the greatest program of all time you'd also have to include all of the teams who played prior to 1955 when the teams were separated into divisions and all of the defunct teams.

I would love to include everyone. The problem is, the data just isn't available. Therefore, I decided to rank the teams currently playing D-1. If I could get all the data to include all of the defunct/no longer playing D-1 teams, I would. If you would like to spearhead the project (there were some people that were going to try and help with this earlier in the thread, perhaps work with them), it would be greatly appreciated and I would include that data in my list.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Coming in at #5...

Denver
2009-2010 Final Ranking: 6
2009-2010 Final Points: 333.3811
2010-2011 Points Earned: 7.2447
2010-2011 Final Points: 340.6258
Percent Change: +2.17%

2010-2011 Final Ranking: 5

#06 - Wisconsin (-1)
#07 - Boston College
#08 - Michigan State
#09 - Maine
#10 - Michigan Tech
#11 - Lake Superior State
#12 - Cornell
#13 - Colorado College
#14 - Clarkson
#15 - Harvard
#16 - Minnesota Duluth (+4)
#17 - RPI (-1)
#18 - Northern Michigan
#19 - New Hampshire
#20 - Bowling Green (-3)
#21 - St. Lawrence
#22 - Miami (+1)
#23 - Providence (-1)
#24 - Notre Dame (+1)
#25 - Dartmouth (-1)
#26 - Yale
#27 - Colgate
#28 - Northeastern
#29 - Brown
#30 - Ohio State
#31 - Vermont
#32 - St. Cloud State
#33 - Bemidji State
#34 - RIT
#35 - Ferris State
#36 - UMASS-Lowell
#37 - Niagara
#38 - Western Michigan
#39 - Alaska Anchorage (+2)
#40 - Princeton (-1)
#41 - Holy Cross (-1)
#42 - Air Force
#43 - Quinnipiac
#44 - Merrimack (+1)
#45 - Nebraska Omaha (+3)
#46 - Mercyhurst (-2)
#47 - Alaska
#48 - UMASS (-2)
#49 - Mankato
#50 - Alabama Huntsville
#51 - Union (+1)
#52 - Army (-1)
#53 - UCONN
#54 - Sacred Heart
#55 - Bentley
#56 - Robert Morris
#57 - Canisius
#58 - American International
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Coming in at #4...

Boston University
2009-2010 Final Ranking: 4
2009-2010 Final Points: 345.005
2010-2011 Points Earned: 0.4692
2010-2011 Final Points: 345.4742
Percent Change: +0.14%

2010-2011 Final Ranking: 4

#05 - Denver (+1)
#06 - Wisconsin (-1)
#07 - Boston College
#08 - Michigan State
#09 - Maine
#10 - Michigan Tech
#11 - Lake Superior State
#12 - Cornell
#13 - Colorado College
#14 - Clarkson
#15 - Harvard
#16 - Minnesota Duluth (+4)
#17 - RPI (-1)
#18 - Northern Michigan
#19 - New Hampshire
#20 - Bowling Green (-3)
#21 - St. Lawrence
#22 - Miami (+1)
#23 - Providence (-1)
#24 - Notre Dame (+1)
#25 - Dartmouth (-1)
#26 - Yale
#27 - Colgate
#28 - Northeastern
#29 - Brown
#30 - Ohio State
#31 - Vermont
#32 - St. Cloud State
#33 - Bemidji State
#34 - RIT
#35 - Ferris State
#36 - UMASS-Lowell
#37 - Niagara
#38 - Western Michigan
#39 - Alaska Anchorage (+2)
#40 - Princeton (-1)
#41 - Holy Cross (-1)
#42 - Air Force
#43 - Quinnipiac
#44 - Merrimack (+1)
#45 - Nebraska Omaha (+3)
#46 - Mercyhurst (-2)
#47 - Alaska
#48 - UMASS (-2)
#49 - Mankato
#50 - Alabama Huntsville
#51 - Union (+1)
#52 - Army (-1)
#53 - UCONN
#54 - Sacred Heart
#55 - Bentley
#56 - Robert Morris
#57 - Canisius
#58 - American International
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Their wasn't anything really, no conferences, no tournaments, it isn't really going to have much of a impact.

I would have used 1948 as a baseline year 0, but this is FS23's rankings and he can do whatever he wants.

If it is the greatest program of all time you'd also have to include all of the teams who played prior to 1955 when the teams were separated into divisions and all of the defunct teams.


it would be a shame to skip history like this

http://books.google.com/books?id=t0...resnum=35&ved=0CNMBEOgBMCI#v=onepage&q&f=true


Minnesota played in the finals to go to the Olympics, and won the Midwest and Big Ten championships. Go to page 290 for more info.
 
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Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

it would be a shame to skip history like this

http://books.google.com/books?id=t0...resnum=35&ved=0CNMBEOgBMCI#v=onepage&q&f=true


Minnesota played in the finals to go to the Olympics, and won the Midwest and Big Ten championships. Go to page 290 for more info.



I don't think that the pre-NCAA history should be forgotten, just that the data and records from that era isn't as complete or organized as it is needed to be to determine a true best team, you'd have to have a data set that is truely complete and omission free. I'm not sure that is possible for the pre-WWII era as FS23 has commented on. I wonder if those "championships" were counted by FS23?
 
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Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

I wonder if those championships were counted by FS23?

I don't think that the pre-NCAA history should be forgotten, just that the data and records from that era isn't as complete or organized as it is needed to be to determine a true best team, you'd have to have a data set that is truely complete and omission free. I'm not sure that is possible for the pre-WWII era as FS23 has commented on.

Much of the pre-NCAA Tournament data was counted. However, there are, as you mention, many things that the data is either completely missing or not complete. For example, Minnesota claims an AAU title from 1940. The problem with this, is that I cannot find a list of AAU champions/championship games, nor does any other college count AAU titles. Should that title be counted along with Minnesota's other 5 NCAA National Titles? I said no, largely because I'm sure there were other schools that won these titles, and if not, who was even playing for these titles? I know Minnesota beat a high school team in the Semifinals of the 1940 AAU tournament. How does that game count against say a Semifinal win over Michigan in 2002?
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Much of the pre-NCAA Tournament data was counted. However, there are, as you mention, many things that the data is either completely missing or not complete. For example, Minnesota claims an AAU title from 1940. The problem with this, is that I cannot find a list of AAU champions/championship games, nor does any other college count AAU titles. Should that title be counted along with Minnesota's other 5 NCAA National Titles? I said no, largely because I'm sure there were other schools that won these titles, and if not, who was even playing for these titles? I know Minnesota beat a high school team in the Semifinals of the 1940 AAU tournament. How does that game count against say a Semifinal win over Michigan in 2002?

They were a hell of a lot better than the sue were that year. But, since the sue doesn't have one of those, it doesn't count. and, I would like to see what high school you think Minnesota beat. Most of the teams they would have played were teams from Eastern Amateur Hockey League and others like it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hockey_League#Eastern_Amateur_Hockey_League_.281933-1953.29
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

They were a hell of a lot better than the sue were that year. But, since the sue doesn't have one of those, it doesn't count. and, I would like to see what high school you think Minnesota beat. Most of the teams they would have played were teams from Eastern Amateur Hockey League and others like it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hockey_League#Eastern_Amateur_Hockey_League_.281933-1953.29

I'm curious as to who Amesbury is (who Minnesota beat in the Semfinals of the AAU Tourney, sometimes referred to as the "New England All-Stars"). They also beat "Brock Hall of CT" for the AAU Title. Neither of those teams were a part of the EAHL. I would love more information about those two squads, so if you have it, it would be greatly appreciated.

North Dakota didn't have a team in 1940, so anyone would have been "better" than nothing.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

I'm curious as to who Amesbury is (who Minnesota beat in the Semfinals of the AAU Tourney, sometimes referred to as the "New England All-Stars"). They also beat "Brock Hall of CT" for the AAU Title. Neither of those teams were a part of the EAHL. I would love more information about those two squads, so if you have it, it would be greatly appreciated.

North Dakota didn't have a team in 1940, so anyone would have been "better" than nothing.

Information from that era is pretty hard to come by. AAU was in charge of the Olympics at the time, and used these tournaments as a way to judge talent. If I was retired, I would love to run up to the U and go though some old books at the Library. here is a blurb about Eveleth, like MN UAA championship, I wouldn't even know how to begin to make sense of this info.

"The 1928-1929 Eveleth Junior College hockey team, who was comprised entirely of Eveleth players, was the number one ranked college hockey team in the nation, ahead of teams such as Yale, Minnesota, Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth. So good was this junior college team that it was considered by the United States Olympic Committee to represent the United States in the 1928 Winter Olympic Games in Amsterdam, Holland. However, due to a lack of financial funding, Eveleth Junior College respectfully declined the invitation to serve as the US Olympic hockey team, and the United States consequently was not represented in the 1928 Winter Games."


I would like to see the rankings they were talking about.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Information from that era is pretty hard to come by. AAU was in charge of the Olympics at the time, and used these tournaments as a way to judge talent. If I was retired, I would love to run up to the U and go though some old books at the Library. here is a blurb about Eveleth, like MN UAA championship, I wouldn't even know how to begin to make sense of this info.

"The 1928-1929 Eveleth Junior College hockey team, who was comprised entirely of Eveleth players, was the number one ranked college hockey team in the nation, ahead of teams such as Yale, Minnesota, Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth. So good was this junior college team that it was considered by the United States Olympic Committee to represent the United States in the 1928 Winter Olympic Games in Amsterdam, Holland. However, due to a lack of financial funding, Eveleth Junior College respectfully declined the invitation to serve as the US Olympic hockey team, and the United States consequently was not represented in the 1928 Winter Games."


I would like to see the rankings they were talking about.

Agreed. I've been to Minnesota's libraries, and they are absolutely amazing. When I was doing my dissertation I spent months there (literally). I'm curious if they have anything at the Hockey Hall of Fame up in Eveleth.

As for the rankings, they could be just about anything from an actual media outlet's rankings to the person's writing the article. As you said, anything from that era is extremely difficult to track down. I don't know if there would even be anything in archives other than what can be found online.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Agreed. I've been to Minnesota's libraries, and they are absolutely amazing. When I was doing my dissertation I spent months there (literally). I'm curious if they have anything at the Hockey Hall of Fame up in Eveleth.

As for the rankings, they could be just about anything from an actual media outlet's rankings to the person's writing the article. As you said, anything from that era is extremely difficult to track down. I don't know if there would even be anything in archives other than what can be found online.
Remind me after memorial day weekend and I can go check out the Hall of Fame for you...I'll be up in Virginia/Eveleth/Biwabik all summer for work.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

They were a hell of a lot better than the sue were that year. But, since the sue doesn't have one of those, it doesn't count. and, I would like to see what high school you think Minnesota beat. Most of the teams they would have played were teams from Eastern Amateur Hockey League and others like it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hockey_League#Eastern_Amateur_Hockey_League_.281933-1953.29

Here's a thought, Happy. This thread is about all college hockey teams, so your over-the-top and misplaced hatred of North Dakota isn't really appropriate here. Continue to troll the UND threads if you must, but I would guess that the rest of college hockey fans are really not interested in the drivel that you post. Leave the "I hate North Dakota" crap out of this thread. FightingSioux23 has done too much work for you to waste other people's time with your crap.
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

I'm curious as to who Amesbury is (who Minnesota beat in the Semfinals of the AAU Tourney, sometimes referred to as the "New England All-Stars"). They also beat "Brock Hall of CT" for the AAU Title. Neither of those teams were a part of the EAHL. I would love more information about those two squads, so if you have it, it would be greatly appreciated.
From Spalding’s Official Ice Hockey Rules for 1940-41:

<I><B>A.A.U. National Championship</B>

The national hockey championships of the Amateur Athletic Union were held under the auspices of the Adirondack Association of the A.A.U. and the North Elba Park District of Lake Placid at the Olympic Arena, Lake Placid, N.Y., March 1, 2 and 3, 1940. Edward W. Stanley, Clinton, N.Y., was in charge of the games.

One entry is allowed in the tournament from each Association of the A.A.U., except for the host association, which is allowed two entries. Players must be registered in the A.A.U. before February 1st to be eligible to participate.

Six teams entered. In the first round the Clinton (N.Y.) Hockey Club defeated the Short Hills (N.J.) Hockey Club, 5-0, and the Brock-Hall club of New Haven, Conn., defeated the Massena Stars of Massena, N.Y., 5-4. University of Minnesota and the Amesbury (Mass.) Maple Leafs drew byes in the preliminary round.

In the semi-finals Brock-Hall defeated Clinton, 9-6, and Minnesota defeated Amesbury, 9-4. Minnesota defeated Brock-Hall in the finals, 9-1, thereby becoming A.A.U. national champion.</I>

That's all I have.

Sean
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

"The 1928-1929 Eveleth Junior College hockey team, who was comprised entirely of Eveleth players, was the number one ranked college hockey team in the nation, ahead of teams such as Yale, Minnesota, Harvard, Princeton, and Dartmouth. So good was this junior college team that it was considered by the United States Olympic Committee to represent the United States in the 1928 Winter Olympic Games in Amsterdam, Holland. However, due to a lack of financial funding, Eveleth Junior College respectfully declined the invitation to serve as the US Olympic hockey team, and the United States consequently was not represented in the 1928 Winter Games."


I would like to see the rankings they were talking about.
From Spalding’s Official Ice Hockey Guide for 1929-30

<I><B>National Rankings of Collegiate Teams, 1928-29</B>
By Theodore Mills Tonnele (Princeton)

As the result of a number of years’ study of the ranking of college athletic teams, the writer has concluded that a pragmatic formula may be devised for any sport, which upon application to any group of teams, will result in a surprisingly sound ranking of them.

A formula worked out for, and applied to, the collegiate hockey teams throughout the country, gives the following ranking this past season:

<B>A TEAMS</B>
Ranking Order – Team – Index No.
1. Eveleth Junior College (19.00)
2. Yale (16.60)
3. Minnesota (16.08)
4. Clarkson (14.00)
5. Dartmouth (11.44)
6. Harvard (10.38)
7. Marquette (9.55)
8. Princeton (9.50)
9. Wisconsin (6.33)
10. Michigan (4.36)

The index number of each team gives the ranking position of the team as to all other teams. It does not indicate the degree of superiority of any team over any other team. Thus, an index number of 6 shows that the team is stronger than any having a smaller index number, but it does not in any way indicate that a the team is twice as strong as one with an index number of 3. Moreover, in view of the vagaries of competitive sport, the index number manifestly does not show that a team is bound to defeat one having a lower index number, or even that it has defeated all teams of lower index numbers which it met during the course of the past season.

The index number is the result of applying a general formula for measuring the strength of a team, to the record of the particular team during the season.

The determination of the formula involves three steps – a broad classification of the teams, a measurement of the relative performance of each team against others teams, and a proper weighting of the differences in performance.

A study of the records of the forty-seven teams to be ranked, shows that they fall naturally into three well-defined groups, one of which may be divided into two sub-groups. These groups may be described as (A), the extremely good teams; (B), the ordinarily good teams, including (B1), the better of the B teams, and (B2), the merely fairly good teams; and (C), all the other teams.

A distinctive feature of each class for the past season, is that no C team defeated an A or B team, and no B team defeated an A team.

Having made this general classification, it becomes necessary, in order to rank the teams within each class, to measure the relative performance of the teams in the class as against the same opponents or against different opponents of equal caliber. A scale of five divisions, representing the varying degrees of victory or loss, proves itself sufficiently accurate in measurement to differentiate in the performance of teams in games within their own class, and avoids undue refinement so that the divisions are sufficiently distinct for the division within which the performance of a team falls to immediately apparent. These five divisions of performance are (1) decisively winning, (2) barely winning, (3) tieing, (4) barely losing, and (5) decisively losing (abbreviated “dw”, “bw”, “t”, “bl”, “dl”, respectively). It appears that in hockey, a difference of two goals constitutes a decisive victory for the winner, and correspondingly, a decisive loss for the loser.

In dealing with the performance of teams in games with teams of a different class, no debit is given for losing to a team of a higher class, nor any credit for defeating a team of a lower class, except in certain cases of a B team decisively defeating a C team. The same credit is given for defeating a team of a higher class, as a team in that class would receive, and the same debit, for losing to a team of lower class, as a team in the lower class would receive.

It remains only to give the proper relative weight to these varying degrees of performance. This is done by giving a number of points credit or debit, properly graduated to the divisions of the measuring scale. The following are found empirically to be substantially correct figures for the purpose, and their determination results in the completed formula
Code:
dw.			+19	dw.			+4	dw.			+ 3½ 
bw.			+18	bw.			+3	bw.			+ 2½ 
t.	an A team	+14	t.	a B1 team	+2	t.	a B2 team	+ 1½ 
bl.			+ 5	bl.			-2½	bl.			-3
dl.			  0	dl.			-3½	dl.			-4
A credit of 1 is given to a B team for decisively winning from a C team if the ranking of the B team is helped by doing so.

In view of the variation in the play of many club teams during a season, and in almost from one game to another, and in the difficulty of classifying club teams, games with club teams are ignored. On the other hand, practically all Canadian college teams are Class A teams, and games with them are rated accordingly.

A team’s performance in each of its games with other college teams is rated in accordance with the foregoing table; the points are totaled and the sum is divided by number of games so rated. This yields a quotient which is the index number of the team’s comparative ranking. For illustration, Williams’ record, works out as follows:

dw. Amherst, B2 team +3½
dw. Amherst, B2 team +3½
bl. Amherst, B2 team -3
dw. West Point, C team – (no advantage to include)
bw. Amherst, B2 team +2½
bw. Amherst, B2 team 2 ½
bw. Mass. Agri., B2 team, +2½
bl. Cornell, B1 team -2½
dw. Pennsylvania, C team – (no advantage to include)
dl. Princeton, A team – (not included)
bl. Middlebury, B1 team -2½
bl. Princeton, A team +5
dw. Union, B2 team +3½
Net total +15
Divided by number of games 10
Index number of rating +1.5</I>

Here is Eveleth Junior College’s record taken from the Guide:
dw. Hibbing Junior Coll., C team – (not included)
dw. Marquette Univ., A team +19
dw. Marquette Univ. A team, +19
dw. Duluth Central H.S. – (not included)
dw. Hibbing Junior Coll., C team – (not included)
t. Virginia City Team, club – (not included)
dw. Duluth Junior Coll., C team – (not included)
dw. Fort Frances Leafs (Ontario), club – (not included)
dw. Michigan Tech, B team – (not included)
dw. Duluth Central H.S. – (not included)
dw. Hibbing Junior Coll., C team – (not included)
dw. Michigan Tech, B team – (not included)
dw. Univ. of Wisconsin, A team +19
bw. St. Mary’s College (Minn), B team – (not included)
dw. Virginia City Team, club – (not included)
dw. Michigan Tech, B team – (not included)
dw. Duluth Junior Coll., C team – (not included)
bw. Eveleth H.S. – (not included)
dw. Fort Frances Leafs (Ontario), club – (not included)
Net total +57
Divided by number of games 3
Index number of rating +19

The second place team in this ranking, Yale, played 10 A teams, 3 dw, 5 bw, 1 t and 1 bl. Who do you think was actually the better team in 1928-29?

Sean
 
Re: The Greatest Programs of All-Time: #1 - #58

Here's a thought, Happy. This thread is about all college hockey teams, so your over-the-top and misplaced hatred of North Dakota isn't really appropriate here. Continue to troll the UND threads if you must, but I would guess that the rest of college hockey fans are really not interested in the drivel that you post. Leave the "I hate North Dakota" crap out of this thread. FightingSioux23 has done too much work for you to waste other people's time with your crap.

My discussion of AAU and Eveleth has led to a few nice hockey history posts. Your personal attack on me has not. Why don't you stay on topic for once.
 
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