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The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Right, but you were arguing that businesses should be able to discriminate, and using Minnesota as an example of a pro business state. I was merely pointing out Minnesota is one of the leaders in not allowing such discrimination.

Your positioning is misleading though. Minnesota is a leader in general civil rights...and independently, a leader in being business friendly. It is not a leader in mandating to whom a business must sell...as you appear to have claimed.
 
Your positioning is misleading though. Minnesota is a leader in general civil rights...and independently, a leader in being business friendly. It is not a leader in mandating to whom a business must sell...as you appear to have claimed.

But it is. Its civil rights law covers 1)places of public accommodations, and 2) more classes of people than the vast majority of states do, including sexual orientation and gender identity.

If it's not one if the strongest ones out there, I'd like your idea of one that is stronger.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

But it is. Its civil rights law covers 1)places of public accommodations, and 2) more classes of people than the vast majority of states do, including sexual orientation and gender identity.

If it's not one if the strongest ones out there, I'd like your idea of one that is stronger.

Alright, maybe you've proved me wrong. Source on benchmarking comparative state business statutes?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

The law (presuming we're in a state where this is covered) says you can't discriminate in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. If you charge different prices because someone is gay, that is inherently discrimination.

Yeah, it's hard to prove, but under your scenario that's as clear cut as you can get. No harder than proving someone was denied service because they're gay.

I guess then you get thrown back into "what is a 'public' accommodation?" then, eh?

Physicians and dentists are not required by law to accept anyone who walks into their office as a patient, right? And among the patients they do accept, they are legally allowed to charge different people different prices for the same services? (maybe insurance network A pays for one level of coverage, insurance network B pays for a different level of coverage, etc).

Attorneys are not required by law to accept anyone who walks into their office as a client, right? and among the clients they do accept, they are legally allowed to charge different people different prices for the same services? (I know that contingency percentages are capped in many states, but not the dollar amounts).

So, in many fields, business people can legally pick and choose whom to accept as customers, and who to decline, correct? and among those whom they do accept, they can legally charge different prices for similar services, correct?

How would a catering service, say, that has no "public accommodation" (i.e., they do not run a storefront serving food) be treated then? Each case, each situation, is unique.





Far beyond these trifling quibbles, what I don't understand at all: if a baker, say, or any food preparer for that matter, says s/he doesn't want your business, why would you insist that they provide it anyway? Why not simply say, "to hell with them" and just go elsewhere? I probably would be leery of eating food prepared by someone who I know doesn't like me....
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

they are legally allowed to charge different people different prices for the same services

The only business I can think of where you're allowed to charge based on a suspect class is insurance, because they can demonstrate a rational, relevant and compelling reason (i.e., actuarial patterns differ by race). Sexual orientation is this close to being a suspect class. Once it is, the game is ovah.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

I guess then you get thrown back into "what is a 'public' accommodation?" then, eh?

Physicians and dentists are not required by law to accept anyone who walks into their office as a patient, right? And among the patients they do accept, they are legally allowed to charge different people different prices for the same services? (maybe insurance network A pays for one level of coverage, insurance network B pays for a different level of coverage, etc).

Attorneys are not required by law to accept anyone who walks into their office as a client, right? and among the clients they do accept, they are legally allowed to charge different people different prices for the same services? (I know that contingency percentages are capped in many states, but not the dollar amounts).

So, in many fields, business people can legally pick and choose whom to accept as customers, and who to decline, correct? and among those whom they do accept, they can legally charge different prices for similar services, correct?

How would a catering service, say, that has no "public accommodation" (i.e., they do not run a storefront serving food) be treated then? Each case, each situation, is unique.





Far beyond these trifling quibbles, what I don't understand at all: if a baker, say, or any food preparer for that matter, says s/he doesn't want your business, why would you insist that they provide it anyway? Why not simply say, "to hell with them" and just go elsewhere? I probably would be leery of eating food prepared by someone who I know doesn't like me....
The problem is you are confusing discrimination with illegal discrimination.

Businesses and employers can always pick and choose who they hire, who they do business with, who they provide services to. That is discrimination. You just can't make those decisions because of an illegal reason -- race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc...
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Businesses and employers can always pick and choose who they hire, who they do business with, who they provide services to. That is discrimination. You just can't make those decisions because of an illegal reason -- race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc...

Chicks are still OK, though, right? But if women not having to pay cover goes away, the entire American economy will collapse.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Chicks are still OK, though, right? But if women not having to pay cover goes away, the entire American economy will collapse.

That's ok. It's collapsing under the Weight of wage disparity anyway. What's one more thing?
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Chicks are still OK, though, right? But if women not having to pay cover goes away, the entire American economy will collapse.
Unofan would probably know more than the rest of us, but I think there are actually cases where people have sued bars because of "ladies night" or the like where women got in under a reduced cover charge. :eek:

Edit: Apparently it is discrimination, but we're going to look the other way. :p

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2010/06/11/ladies-night
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

That's ok. It's collapsing under the Weight of wage disparity anyway. What's one more thing?

You may take our upwards mobility, suh, but you shall never take our right to ogle brainless bimbos in bars!
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

tl;dr generic right wing talking point

All those professions are free to pick and choose their clients for any legal reason. None of them are allowed to turn people away based on an illegal reason.

A doctor can turn away a patient because he doesn't specialize in that area, because the patient can't pay, because the patient is a UConn basketball fan, whatever. If he's an OB-GYN, he can even refuse service to men. What he can't do is turn someone away because they're black, or Australian, or any other reason that is illegal under state or Federal law.

While the definition of "public accommodation" varies somewhat, generally speaking it is either 1) any place that offers goods or services to the general public or 2) receives any sort of government funding.

So again, presuming we're in a state that covers sexual orientation, no, a doctor can't discriminate against someone who is gay because they are gay. Whether that is an outright denial of service or charging different fees or even something as minor as forcing them to wait outside rather than in a waiting room, they can't do it.

If you want to say good luck proving that, I'm not saying it's easy. But your understanding of the law sucks. I hope you don't ever try to defend yourself pro se.
 
Unofan would probably know more than the rest of us, but I think there are actually cases where people have sued bars because of "ladies night" or the like where women got in under a reduced cover charge. :eek:

Edit: Apparently it is discrimination, but we're going to look the other way. :p

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2010/06/11/ladies-night
Only investigating following a complaint isn't exactly looking the other way. It's not like cops patrol neighborhoods with calibrated microphones looking for noise violations.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Unofan would probably know more than the rest of us, but I think there are actually cases where people have sued bars because of "ladies night" or the like where women got in under a reduced cover charge. :eek:

Edit: Apparently it is discrimination, but we're going to look the other way. :p

http://www.mprnews.org/story/2010/06/11/ladies-night

There's an oft repeated rumor/urban legend that certain national chain restaurants who may or may not hire based on how "blessed" their employees are have a slush fund to pay out harassment/discrimination claims brought against them because they view it as a cost of doing business. I've never had any dealings with said chains, but frankly it wouldn't shock me.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

All those professions are free to pick and choose their clients for any legal reason. None of them are allowed to turn people away based on an illegal reason.

A doctor can turn away a patient because he doesn't specialize in that area, because the patient can't pay, because the patient is a UConn basketball fan, whatever. If he's an OB-GYN, he can even refuse service to men. What he can't do is turn someone away because they're black, or Australian, or any other reason that is illegal under state or Federal law.

While the definition of "public accommodation" varies somewhat, generally speaking it is either 1) any place that offers goods or services to the general public or 2) receives any sort of government funding.

So again, presuming we're in a state that covers sexual orientation, no, a doctor can't discriminate against someone who is gay because they are gay. Whether that is an outright denial of service or charging different fees or even something as minor as forcing them to wait outside rather than in a waiting room, they can't do it.

If you want to say good luck proving that, I'm not saying it's easy. But your understanding of the law sucks. I hope you don't ever try to defend yourself pro se.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=363A.17
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?


"Place of public accommodation" means a business, accommodation, refreshment, entertainment, recreation, or transportation facility of any kind, whether licensed or not, whose goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages or accommodations are extended, offered, sold, or otherwise made available to the public.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=363A.03
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Only investigating following a complaint isn't exactly looking the other way. It's not like cops patrol neighborhoods with calibrated microphones looking for noise violations.
True. But substitute "whitey" for "ladies" in this WCCO story and I suspect the Department of Human Rights role would become a bit more active.
 
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