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The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

5mn_Major said:
Although I decided not to pursue it at the time, this was the exercise that occurred to me awhile back when I mentioned the possibility of bigotry. Kep may be right about the particular post. Yet there have been quite a few derogatory posts blanketing Christians that would be universally panned had they instead referenced women or Jews.
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You may be mistaking criticism of particular groups of Christians -- fundies for instance -- with blanket criticism of all Christians. I'll admit for example to being utterly contemptuous of fundamentalism or literalism. Those people think the map is the territory, and the moment they start interfering with others back to the caves with them. But having the power of objective discernment when it comes to the inanity of literalism has no implication for those who understand faith as a combination of metaphor, symbolism, and helpful hints.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

One thing that is interesting about many of these discussions is how much of the text depends upon the translators.

My own spirituality is more Taoist than anything else, and the "meaning" starts with the title, one translation of Lao Tzu is titled Tao te Ching while the other is titled The Way of Life. I originally had three translations, but I'm not sure what happened to the third one.

The opening canto, which I originally learned as

"The Way that can be spoken of
Is not the Constant Way"

appears with such different translation that one wonders what the original must be like:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestation.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.
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Based on my knowledge of quantum mechanics, this all actually makes a great deal of sense to me (absent an interaction with an observer, there is only potentiality; through interaction with an observer, potentiality crystallizes into a singular reality: or in techno-jargon, the superposition of probability waves collapses into a single state).

I like the above version, it has a nice poetic feel to it.

Anyway, contrast the above to the following version:

Existence is beyond the power of words to define:
Terms may be used
But are none of them absolute.
In the beginning of heaven and earth there were no words.
Words came out of the womb of matter;
And whether a man dispassionately
Sees to the core of life
Or passionately
Sees the surface,
The core and the surface
Are essentially the same,
Words making them seem different
Only to express appearance.
If none be needed, wonder names them both:
From wonder into wonder
Existence opens.
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Exact same source text.
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

FreshFish said:
One thing that is interesting about many of these discussions is how much of the text depends upon the translators.

My own spirituality is more Taoist than anything else
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Two book recommendations for you:

The Tao of Physics, by Fritjof Capra
The Perennial Philosophy, by Aldous Huxley

The first one is basically word-for-word what you are talking about. I think it will resonate strongly with you.

This, OTOH, is a brutal rebuttal of the whole project.

The second one is a much tougher read -- at first, in fact, it will appear almost unfathomable. But it's where you're headed, and it's an interesting journey.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Kepler said:
At least somebody's showing initiative these days.
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You can always get a sense of the validity of an article by its name...

Christian bakers blame Satan when crowdfunding to pay for discrimination fine gets spiked (what does that even mean)

Any business should have the ability to determine who it can serve. Banks should have the ability to refuse service to the loud and profane. Bars should have the ability to not serve those who are violent drunks. Gun shops should have the ability to not serve those who they deem are obviously a threat to society. And yes, atheists should have the right to refuse Christians. Likewise, anyone has the choice to not buy from those organizations that they deem are based on bigotry.
 
5mn_Major said:
You can always get a sense of the validity of an article by its name...

Christian bakers blame Satan when crowdfunding to pay for discrimination fine gets spiked (what does that even mean)

Any business should have the ability to determine who it can serve. Banks should have the ability to refuse service to the loud and profane. Bars should have the ability to not serve those who are violent drunks. Gun shops should have the ability to not serve those who they deem are obviously a threat to society. And yes, atheists should have the right to refuse Christians. Likewise, anyone has the choice to not buy from those organizations that they deem are based on bigotry.
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You were doing so well, right up until the atheists. Your other examples are all cases where businesses would choose not to serve an individual based on his actual behavior (present or past). Completely different than pre-judging a potential customer based on his membership in a demographic or religious group. Anyone who actually buys your argument would also necessarily be okay with whites-only lunch counters.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

LynahFan said:
You were doing so well, right up until the atheists. Your other examples are all cases where businesses would choose not to serve an individual based on his actual behavior (present or past). Completely different than pre-judging a potential customer based on his membership in a demographic or religious group. Anyone who actually buys your argument would also necessarily be okay with whites-only lunch counters.
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In modern America, any businesses conducting such practices would be boycotted out of existence within days. Perhaps there is risk in places that are not modern America.

In Minnesota, we've have arguably the nations most successful integration of government, citizens, and business which has been accomplished by Dems. Other states can't seem to figure this one out. Yet, government in 21st century America shouldn't force behavior on adults when there is no threat of harm others.
 
5mn_Major said:
In modern America, any businesses conducting such practices would be boycotted out of existence within days. Perhaps there is risk in places that are not modern America.

In Minnesota, we've have arguably the nations most successful integration of government, citizens, and business which has been accomplished by Dems. Other states can't seem to figure this one out. Yet, government in 21st century America shouldn't force behavior on adults when there is no threat of harm others.
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Minnesota also has one of the strongest civil rights laws in the country. Just saying...
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

It seems unnecessary for businesses to refuse to serve gay couples....just charge them more instead, then they'll go elsewhere for a better price, and there won't be all the legal and publicity mess.

(no, I'm not "advocating" for this solution, I am merely pointing out that those who refuse to provide services are being really stupid when they could achieve the same de facto result merely through their pricing policy instead. Another business would notice and price its own services accordingly to attract the very same customers that the first business declines).

Differential pricing from a private business exists all the time, for plenty of valid non-discriminatory reasons....
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

FreshFish said:
It seems unnecessary for businesses to refuse to serve gay couples....just charge them more instead, then they'll go elsewhere for a better price, and there won't be all the legal and publicity mess.

(no, I'm not "advocating" for this solution, I am merely pointing out that those who refuse to provide services are being really stupid when they could achieve the same de facto result merely through their pricing policy instead.
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I assume you're "Modest Proposaling" here, since charging gays more would be incredibly illegal.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

Kepler said:
I assume you're "Modest Proposaling" here, since charging gays more would be incredibly illegal.
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How so? Each person who comes into a bakery requesting a wedding cake might easily be charged a different price depending upon how much decorating they want, where they want it delivered, etc. Maybe the little statue of the same-sex couple on the top is a lot more expensive than a groom-bride statue, who knows?

There is no law as far as I know that requires every bakery to have a fixed price list for wedding cakes that it must offer to each and every customer.

For most of us, it would be a distasteful practice, but forcing a business to accept everyone as a customer at the same price is too much of a police state for me. If you berate my employees, I should be able to refuse you as a customer, or at least charge you more for all the extra annoyance you cost us.

Although I would not mind it at all if cable companies had to offer the same pricing to existing customers that they do to new customers! That differential pricing really does annoy me because it means existing customers are overpaying in order to increase the cable company's market share at their expense.
 
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Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

FreshFish said:
How so? Each person who comes into a bakery requesting a wedding cake might easily be charged a different price depending upon how much decorating they want, where they want it delivered, etc. Maybe the little statue of the same-sex couple on the top is a lot more expensive than a groom-bride statue, who knows?

There is no law as far as I know that requires every bakery to have a fixed price list for wedding cakes that it must offer to each and every customer.

For most of us, it would be a distasteful practice, but forcing a business to accept everyone as a customer at the same price is too much of a police state for me. If you berate my employees, I should be able to refuse you as a customer, or at least charge you more for all the extra annoyance you cost us.

Although I would not mind it at all if cable companies had to offer the same pricing to existing customers that they do to new customers! That differential pricing really does annoy me because it means existing customers are overpaying in order to increase the cable company's market share at their expense.
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So in your world being gay = berating your customers...

I wonder if anyone would mind if I set up a lunch counter and charged blacks extra for sitting there...
 
FreshFish said:
There is no law as far as I know that requires every bakery to have a fixed price list for wedding cakes that it must offer to each and every customer.
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The law (presuming we're in a state where this is covered) says you can't discriminate in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. If you charge different prices because someone is gay, that is inherently discrimination.

Yeah, it's hard to prove, but under your scenario that's as clear cut as you can get. No harder than proving someone was denied service because they're gay.
 
Re: The Bible: Real, Fiction, or somewhere in between?

unofan said:
Minnesota also has one of the strongest civil rights laws in the country. Just saying...
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And it is also the number 1 blue or purple state for being business friendly according to CNBC (i.e., not due to low taxes). You can do both.
 
5mn_Major said:
And it is also the number 1 blue or purple state for being business friendly according to CNBC (i.e., not due to low taxes). You can do both.
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Right, but you were arguing that businesses should be able to discriminate, and using Minnesota as an example of a pro business state. I was merely pointing out Minnesota is one of the leaders in not allowing such discrimination.
 
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