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The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

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Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...moirs_how_the_united_states_kept_a_gitmo.html

Is everyone comfortable with the steps and actions taken by our government here?

http://detaineetaskforce.org/

“it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.
The report was drafted by the Constitution Project, and the panel that authored it included Republicans and military officials. It blames the Bush Administration for practicing a number of torture techniques, including waterboarding, sexual humiliation, sleep deprivation, forcing subjects into painful positions and disappearances. In fact, the Bush Administration actually called many of these tactics torture itself—at least when other countries did them. Approximately 100 prisoners died while under government custody.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Rover said:
But did he say what he was going to do? You tell kid, do your homework 'or else'. He/she doesn't do their homework. You left the consequences vague, so you have some leeway, correct? It could be anything from a spanking to no desert after dinner, but you need not deliver the most extreme punishment. That concept is getting lost here.

This is why I put the neo-cons on the spot. Its easy to complain about all things Obama, but what's their solution? That's what I'm not hearing too much of out here.

So, the US could simply ramp up non-military aid and share some logistical info with the rebels about Assad backed troop movements for example. However, I absolutely would not start getting involved with any US personnel in that country. That includes boots on the ground or a no fly zone which wouldn't have much use anyway. I'm also extremely reluctant to start sending in arms. What I find funny is that the same ideology that preaches personal responsibility for its citizens wants to intervene at the drop of a hat on behalf of people overseas. I too don't like the carnage over there, but the problem of Syria's govt must be solved by Syrians. The minute the US gets heavily involved the opposition pivots to the usual American Imperialism schlock to justify their continued existence. We don't need to create that "out" for the regime.
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I agree that Obama has generally done ok on Syria, and that there just aren't any good options out there to choose from. To pretend he's missed some easy option that would make things much better on the ground there is unfair.

That said, his draw the line thing is a bit of a mess. I'm sure he said it, thinking the line wouldn't actually be crossed, so he could just sound like he was standing strong against Syria. But, as President, you have to be careful about making such pronouncements, as crazy people around the world will do stuff that will make you take action in situations you thought you wouldn't need to act on. So Obama has gotten himself into a bit of a pickle, and it's of his own making.
 
Bob Gray said:
I agree that Obama has generally done ok on Syria, and that there just aren't any good options out there to choose from. To pretend he's missed some easy option that would make things much better on the ground there is unfair.

That said, his draw the line thing is a bit of a mess. I'm sure he said it, thinking the line wouldn't actually be crossed, so he could just sound like he was standing strong against Syria. But, as President, you have to be careful about making such pronouncements, as crazy people around the world will do stuff that will make you take action in situations you thought you wouldn't need to act on. So Obama has gotten himself into a bit of a pickle, and it's of his own making.
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A fair assessment Bob. Obama has a problem which I suspect is personality driven. That problem is he seems to believe that by mere words he can control things that he otherwise has no actual power over. Two other examples. 1) The sequester, which once signed into law he couldn't undo by himself, and 2) "changing the tone in Washington": a campaign promise he made that unless he's perfected mind control he also couldn't deliver on his own.

Syria is very similar. Admonishing an irrational regime will do no good. I would expect Assad to do whatever he pleases to survive and the rebels to do whatever it takes to get rid of him. To back up his threat, about all I think Obama can reasonably do is covertly funnel arms to the rebels, which is something he can't announce to the world but leaves his line in the sand declaration unanswered. Perhaps that's the way this will play out....
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Rover said:
2) "changing the tone in Washington": a campaign promise he made that unless he's perfected mind control he also couldn't deliver on his own.
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To be fair, his policies have been changing the tone in Washington. You thought things were polarizing during the Clinton and Bush 43 years? They're nothing compared to the partisan fighting that we're seeing today. The last time the country was this partisan, we had the War of Mid-Atlantic Aggression.
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
To be fair, his policies have been changing the tone in Washington. You thought things were polarizing during the Clinton and Bush 43 years? They're nothing compared to the partisan fighting that we're seeing today. The last time the country was this partisan, we had the War of Mid-Atlantic Aggression.
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I don't think Obama is treated any differently by the opposition than Clinton was. That's why I don't think opposition to Obama is rooted in racism. Simply put the right is made up of an older population that longs for the Reagan era, and can't bring itself to realize 1980 is gone and isn't coming back. Clinton had far better political skills than Obama and to this point is a more successful President, hence the need from the right to resort to more desperate tactics (600 investigations from contract murder to firing some White House busboys, an Impeachment over conduct that almost all the people prosecuting him were engaged in themselves, etc).

Bottom line is, the polarization of this country is a creature of conservatives making. A long time ago, from the Nixon era to Atwater's campaign heyday, dividing Americans on issues won elections (5 out of 6 from 68-88). The GOP is having trouble leaving those tactics behind, even though they have lost considerable effectivness (outvoted in 5 out of 6 elections from 92-08) as the portion of the electorate still around from that timeframe dwindles as a % of the total population.

If Hillary becomes Prez in 2017, do you expect anything different? If the Dem President changes but the tone remains the same, at what point do you start assigning responsibility for the problem to the Republicans?
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

FlagDUDE08 said:
To be fair, his policies have been changing the tone in Washington. You thought things were polarizing during the Clinton and Bush 43 years? They're nothing compared to the partisan fighting that we're seeing today. The last time the country was this partisan, we had the War of Mid-Atlantic Aggression.
Click to expand...

Tinfoil is now in overdrive.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Rover said:
I don't think Obama is treated any differently by the opposition than Clinton was. That's why I don't think opposition to Obama is rooted in racism. Simply put the right is made up of an older population that longs for the Reagan era, and can't bring itself to realize 1980 is gone and isn't coming back. Clinton had far better political skills than Obama and to this point is a more successful President, hence the need from the right to resort to more desperate tactics (600 investigations from contract murder to firing some White House busboys, an Impeachment over conduct that almost all the people prosecuting him were engaged in themselves, etc).

Bottom line is, the polarization of this country is a creature of conservatives making. A long time ago, from the Nixon era to Atwater's campaign heyday, dividing Americans on issues won elections (5 out of 6 from 68-88). The GOP is having trouble leaving those tactics behind, even though they have lost considerable effectivness (outvoted in 5 out of 6 elections from 92-08) as the portion of the electorate still around from that timeframe dwindles as a % of the total population.

If Hillary becomes Prez in 2017, do you expect anything different? If the Dem President changes but the tone remains the same, at what point do you start assigning responsibility for the problem to the Republicans?
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So the left consistently crowing "It's Bush's Fault!" during practically his entire presidency isn't partisanship?
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
So the left consistently crowing "It's Bush's Fault!" during practically his entire presidency isn't partisanship?
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Ummm...saying "Its Bush's Fault" when he's well acknowledged by the public as one of the worst Presidents in history vs partisan Congressional investigations of murder accusations? Somehow I don't think that's the same thing Flaggy...
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Rover said:
Ummm...saying "Its Bush's Fault" when he's well acknowledged by the public as one of the worst Presidents in history vs partisan Congressional investigations of murder accusations? Somehow I don't think that's the same thing Flaggy...
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Spinning again to try to justify your stance, eh?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PGNiXGX2nLU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Take off the rose for a minute, come up here, and look at both sides simultaneously. You might understand something.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Rover said:
A fair assessment Bob. Obama has a problem which I suspect is personality driven. That problem is he seems to believe that by mere words he can control things that he otherwise has no actual power over. Two other examples. 1) The sequester, which once signed into law he couldn't undo by himself, and 2) "changing the tone in Washington": a campaign promise he made that unless he's perfected mind control he also couldn't deliver on his own.

Syria is very similar. Admonishing an irrational regime will do no good. I would expect Assad to do whatever he pleases to survive and the rebels to do whatever it takes to get rid of him. To back up his threat, about all I think Obama can reasonably do is covertly funnel arms to the rebels, which is something he can't announce to the world but leaves his line in the sand declaration unanswered. Perhaps that's the way this will play out....
Click to expand...

I think we all, regardless of which party is in the Oval Office, are quick to forget just how difficult some of the issues are that Presidents have to deal with. There are a lot of no-win situations Presidents have to deal with and they don't get to choose when those situations come along. There's a reason Presidents typically look like they've aged 20-30 years or something even if they've only been in office 4-8 years. Not a remotely easy job and they all make mistakes and get a lot of guff regardless of what they do.
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Well it sounds like we've finally figured out what happened to Saddam's chemical weapons....as if those tire tracks in the sand weren't enough of a clue back in 2003. :rolleyes:
 
FreshFish said:
Well it sounds like we've finally figured out what happened to Saddam's chemical weapons....as if those tire tracks in the sand weren't enough of a clue back in 2003. :rolleyes:
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Yeah, I'm sure that's it Fishy. :rolleyes: I don't even think Dick Cheney's wife is as attracted to him as you are. :D
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

FreshFish said:
Well it sounds like we've finally figured out what happened to Saddam's chemical weapons....as if those tire tracks in the sand weren't enough of a clue back in 2003. :rolleyes:
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Hans, Hans, Hans, breakin' my barrs here. We've been over this hundred time: I DON'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS MASS DESTRUCTION, HANS!
 
Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

I really hope I am wrong with what I am about to say. Please, let me be wrong.

The way things are shaping up in Syria right now, it is starting to look like we are going to have to intervene....on behalf of the Assad regime, in order to safeguard his chemical weapons and keep them out of the hands of the Islamist forces that now make up the majority of what is called the "rebellion."

There was a bona fide middle class democratic spontaneous rebellion back in 2011, and if we ever were going to do anything, that was the time to have done it.

One of life's most harsh rules is yet again validated: "Do it when you can, not when you have to."

Of course it is more obvious now to more people in retrospect.

Since it started in 2011, the spontaneous rebellion was indeed eventually crushed; however, they held out long enough for other states to infiltrate mercenaries to serve their own ends. Now the situation in Syria is basically surrogates for the Saudis fighting surrogates for the Iranians, and one thing we know for sure is that they both hate us.

Had we brokered a settlement back in 2011 by threatening force and moving ships and troops into position and rallying international support, no shots would actually have been fired, Assad would have been allowed to "retire" to a country with no extradition treaty along with hundreds of millions of dollars he had embezzled, the chemical weapons would have been secured, and it would be two years in the rear view mirror by now, with moderates having prominent say in how their country is being run.

Now, the moderates are all dead or intimidated, and it is two mercenary armies fighting for control as part of a larger geopolitical chess match. and our President is playing checkers. sigh

It's too late to do anything to help the current crop of so-called "rebels" now, since what is left is just as awful as Assad in their own way. The best thing we could do is just call "time out", step in secure the chemical weapons, and then say "time in" and let them go back to fighting. We're actually better off letting them slaughter each other since then we won't have to worry about those enemies troubling us any more.

What an ugly situation. When it comes to national security, there should be no partisanship. But there does need to be steely-eyed adulthood. We've had too much of the former and too little of the latter.
 
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Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Are all telephone calls recorded and accessible to the US government?

The real capabilities and behavior of the US surveillance state are almost entirely unknown to the American public because, like most things of significance done by the US government, it operates behind an impenetrable wall of secrecy. But a seemingly spontaneous admission this week by a former FBI counterterrorism agent provides a rather startling acknowledgment of just how vast and invasive these surveillance activities are.

Over the past couple days, cable news tabloid shows such as CNN's Out Front with Erin Burnett have been excitingly focused on the possible involvement in the Boston Marathon attack of Katherine Russell, the 24-year-old American widow of the deceased suspect, Tamerlan Tsarnaev. As part of their relentless stream of leaks uncritically disseminated by our Adversarial Press Corps, anonymous government officials are claiming that they are now focused on telephone calls between Russell and Tsarnaev that took place both before and after the attack to determine if she had prior knowledge of the plot or participated in any way.

On Wednesday night, Burnett interviewed Tim Clemente, a former FBI counterterrorism agent, about whether the FBI would be able to discover the contents of past telephone conversations between the two. He quite clearly insisted that they could:


BURNETT:
Tim, is there any way, obviously, there is a voice mail they can try to get the phone companies to give that up at this point. It's not a voice mail. It's just a conversation. There's no way they actually can find out what happened, right, unless she tells them?
CLEMENTE: "No, there is a way. We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It's not
necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of
her. We certainly can find that out.
BURNETT: "So they can actually get that? People are saying, look, that is incredible.
CLEMENTE: "No, welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not."

"All of that stuff" - meaning every telephone conversation Americans have with one another on US soil, with or without a search warrant - "is being captured as we speak".

On Thursday night, Clemente again appeared on CNN, this time with host Carol Costello, and she asked him about those remarks. He reiterated what he said the night before but added expressly that "all digital communications in the past" are recorded and store
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Re: The 4th Global War on Terror - Deja vu all over again!

Presidential pal, confidant and mentor Bill Ayers says he's way different from the Marathon bombers. He says he and his Weather underground buddies were about "property" damage. These lefty punks always tried to separate human rights from property rights. Of course, the right to property is a human right. And when the Weather Underground bomb factory in Greenwich Village blew up, killing several of them, they were making anti-personnel bombs. And there was the bombing at the University of Wisconsin that killed a graduate student. Once a radical lefty America-hating punk, always a radical lefty, America-hating punk.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/0...rground-bombings-not-same-as-boston-marathon/
 
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