The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

My incorrect assumption was that the problem in Europe was a lack of access to ice time for girls. But after talking to someone heavily involved in Finland, I'm told that the problem there is girls don't have an interest. Just as the US is at a disadvantage in competition with Canada because our participation numbers are < yours, it will be tough for European countries to catch up if girls don't take up the game in the first place. And that is a difficult problem for anyone outside of their culture to change.

I understand that your organization is doing what it can, and those steps will improve the competitive balance. But it is tough to produce great players from a talent pool that doesn't want to play hockey. I expect that will change in the long run, but it isn't the type of problem that is solved in 4 years.

There are plenty of younger girls that want to play the game in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia, Sweden, China etc. and it peaks every Olympics just as it does in our countries. Unless the systems and infrastructure are in place to support the needs of the ones that want to play it becomes the chicken or the egg.

If the Finn's are resigned to throwing their hands up and saying there is no interest while they are collecting Bronze Medals at these games...I would respond by saying imagine what they and these other countries could do if the kids that do want to play are given the tools to do so.

 

[ARM]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

The only thing wrong with that scenario is that the talent pool north of the border is deep enough that you would then have three north american teams on the podium instead of two.

If those three swept the medals and you removed the realistic hope of an Olympic medal from the other countries, the longterm impact would probably be more harmful than beneficial.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

If the Finn's are resigned to throwing their hands up and saying there is no interest while they are collecting Bronze Medals at these games...I would respond by saying imagine what they and these other countries could do if the kids that do want to play are given the tools to do so.

I heard a comment somewhere this weekend (might have been on CBC), that Finland is committed to play at the level of the US and Canada in four years time, and that they are actively seeking out young girls to get into the game back home.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Over continual objections from other soccer federations, the UK always has four teams eligible for the Soccer World Cup competition as distinct nations - England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (although rarely, if ever, have all four teams qualified for the finals each time - can't be bothered to check with World Cup archives).

There would no doubt be similar objections if Quebec had its own team, but there's no reason why it shouldn't, given that it has officially been granted 'distinct society' status if not outright nationhood within the Canadian federation. There yer go - two teams for the price of one. The only thing wrong with that scenario is that the talent pool north of the border is deep enough that you would then have three north american teams on the podium instead of two. But it would be a start.

Of course, it won't happen because, actually, there is a reason why not. Politically, the creation of a Quebec team would be strenuously resisted because such a team would create a catalyst which would have the potential of starting the slide towards the separation of Quebec from Canada, thus initiating the possibility of the break up of the whole confederation.

Hey not such a bad idea. Then you'd have a team for every province/nation plus the northern territories which would give you... well, more than ten teams anyway. The US would then get gold for a couple of Olympics until everyone got up to speed.

Rambling a bit here...

I hope no one in Quebec reads this, as you are threading on a very slippery political slope here.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I heard a comment somewhere this weekend (might have been on CBC), that Finland is committed to play at the level of the US and Canada in four years time, and that they are actively seeking out young girls to get into the game back home.

The Lord helps those who help themselves...somebody should send the memo to ARM's friend from Finland.

 

[ARM]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

If the Finn's are resigned to throwing their hands up and saying there is no interest ...

I didn't say they were throwing their hands up. But if that is the biggest hurdle to overcome, it presents a different problem than lack of access. They are attempting to grow their numbers. But a fix for the "she has no stick/skates/rink" problem probably won't fix a "she'd rather play soccer" problem. Others have alluded to a stigma against women playing hockey. Hopefully you are right and the Olympics does spark some interest globally.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I didn't say they were throwing their hands up. But if that is the biggest hurdle to overcome, it presents a different problem than lack of access. They are attempting to grow their numbers. But a fix for the "she has no stick/skates/rink" problem probably won't fix a "she'd rather play soccer" problem. Others have alluded to a stigma against women playing hockey. Hopefully you are right and the Olympics does spark some interest globally.

I think the problem the rest of the world is facing with the development of the women's game is similar in nature to what the US is experiencing with womens hockey in the non-traditional areas of this country.

Speaking from first hand observation, there are lots of missing ingredients.

Facilities - few and far between; generally private and expensive to operate.

Coaching development - Even the boys teams down here don't get well-trained coaches here. Associations don't pay for coaching development, as they aren't seeing the enough of the talent that would take advantage of it sad to say.

Culture - The NHL struggles in non-traditional markets, so who is surprised that girls hockey struggles? In the town where I live, about 80-90% of the kids playing hockey (male or female) have a connection to a traditional hockey culture region (transplants). And let's face it, getting used to the idea of girls wearing that stinky hockey equipment (doesn't take long for families taking skating lessons to figure that out) is not for most people in any culture.

Someplace to go with it - Probably the most difficult thing to deal with. I was amazed by the Chinese team's level of skill considering that they probably spend most of their time playing against each other or against local boys teams (what few there are). Down here the girls play with the boys until they turn 12 and then drop the sport, as there aren't generally enough to form one team in a city and then driving hundreds of miles to play an opponent on what is basically a recreational level of play.

Sexism - Quite frankly, parents are not as willing to drive Janey as far as they will drive Johnny for sports. And in our experience, competitive boys 12U/14U teams won't touch girls who can play with them because they see the girls dropping out at 16U and they are trying to "keep the best boys in the game".

I'm betting all of these are universal issues to be dealt with and USA Hockey has yet to figure this one out for much of it's own territory, so I'm not betting on them being able to help the rest of the world.

The good news is that many D1 teams are figuring out that there is great talent out there to be had in these other countries. They are found 1 girl at a time, but they are out there. I think the Chinese, if it is in their national agenda to build this program, will find a way to get their best players playing NCAA hockey within a couple of years. And they are more likely to be agressive in pursuing this than any of the Euro's. I see the Chinese catching the Swedes and Finns before the Swedes and Finns catch the North Americans.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

So what are YOU doing about it? Just asking...

By continuously fueling this fire, I would say you are not helping.

In fairness I think it would be appropriate to ask...so what are YOU doing about it?

If the answer is nothing then I would say YOU are not helping...just asking.

 

[brookyone]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

In fairness I think it would be appropriate to ask...so what are YOU doing about it?

If the answer is nothing then I would say YOU are not helping...just asking.

In the interest of fairness then, you still haven't told us what you're doing. I read your nice little post about what is being done...but you still haven't told anyone here what your personal involvement in those efforts are. Yet you insist on those details from others. Just asking.

 

[bbtt]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

In fairness I think it would be appropriate to ask...so what are YOU doing about it?

If the answer is nothing then I would say YOU are not helping...just asking.

Okay, the crux of my issue is the following statement:

Let's face it, unless some form of parity can be reached in the Women's game in the next four years...this sport is in jeopardy at the games.

By you repeating the statement that unless parity can be reached, the women’s game is in danger, it gives credence to the thought process that there must be parity in all sports. Who says there has to be parity? Is lack of parity a valid reason to cancel a sport? According to your statement it is.

How many years were Nordic events dominated by the Scandinavians? Wasn’t this years Gold the first in 50 years by an American? All sports need time to develop.

My experience is there are three kinds of people in the world. People that make things happen, people that watch things happen and people that say...what happened!

The loss of this Olympic venue in coming years would put many of us in the latter...

As a fan, my ability to impact a foreign country’s policy on sports development is rather limited and I don’t like being told I have to do something or women’s hockey will be cancelled.

Someone has to set the bar. Why shouldn’t it be the US and Canadian teams? Who set the bar in gymnastics? I would guess that Russia won it more years than not, but someone had to be the ideals that people strove for.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Who set the bar in gymnastics? I would guess that Russia won it more years than not, but someone had to be the ideals that people strove for.

Don't forget about Romania in Gymnastics.

Winter sports and bars set:

Hockey.......Canada and later Soviet Union
Nordic........Norway and Sweden
Skiing.......Austria and Switzerland
Speed Skating...Netherlands and Norway
Figure Skating...USA and Sonia Henie
BobSled.....Germany
Ski Jumping...Finns

 

[bbtt]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

The attached article about the Russians may point to their devoting more resources towards women's hockey.

Medvedev demands resignations over Olympic flop
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/olympics/wires/03/01/2090.ap.oly.russia.medvedev/index.html


Also, another journalist's view

When it comes to women's Olympic sports IOC just doesn't get it
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ann_killion/03/02/olympics.women/index.html

 

[OnMAA]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Also, another journalist's view

When it comes to women's Olympic sports IOC just doesn't get it
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/ann_killion/03/02/olympics.women/index.html

I love the closing argument by Ms Killion:

And perhaps Ruggiero can also explain a basic fundamental to her new colleagues. What the IOC doesn't seem to get is that the Olympic Games are the absolutely biggest thing available to most women athletes. It is their Super Bowl, their World Series and their Stanley Cup combined.

That's why the Canadian women's hockey players came back out on the ice an hour after winning the gold medal, trotting out the traditional accessories of sports celebration: cigars, champagne bottles and a few beers.

They're never going to lift the Stanley Cup over their heads, never going to sip out of it. But the Olympics gave them something close.

And wouldn't you know, when the IOC executive director learned of the celebration he huffed that it was inappropriate and wanted to launch an investigation. What a foolish reaction.

But what else would you expect?

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

In the interest of fairness then, you still haven't told us what you're doing. I read your nice little post about what is being done...but you still haven't told anyone here what your personal involvement in those efforts are. Yet you insist on those details from others. Just asking.

In the interst of fairness..why do you jump on every post between bbt and I? What are you.. his mother?

He asked me a question, I answered it. I asked him a question he answered it. If you don't like what was said.... stay out of it.

I also read your nice little post and I'm glad you approve of what we are trying to accomplish. It's heartwarming to know you've sanction same.

I am a facilitator to the efforts described in my nice little post, that's as much detail as anyone on these boards needs to know.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Okay, the crux of my issue is the following statement:



By you repeating the statement that unless parity can be reached, the women’s game is in danger, it gives credence to the thought process that there must be parity in all sports. Who says there has to be parity? Is lack of parity a valid reason to cancel a sport? According to your statement it is.

How many years were Nordic events dominated by the Scandinavians? Wasn’t this years Gold the first in 50 years by an American? All sports need time to develop.



As a fan, my ability to impact a foreign country’s policy on sports development is rather limited and I don’t like being told I have to do something or women’s hockey will be cancelled.

Someone has to set the bar. Why shouldn’t it be the US and Canadian teams? Who set the bar in gymnastics? I would guess that Russia won it more years than not, but someone had to be the ideals that people strove for.

Thanks for providing your insight.

 

[dave1381]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Ditto, and I think it's a terrible violation of the Olympic spirit to tell any athlete that if they do TOO WELL, they'll be punished for having their spot dropped!!!

It was completely outrageous that US dominance was ever mentioned as a reason for softball's exclusion. It was a complete disgrace that the 2008 softball team had to constantly answer questions about how they felt about their success killing their sport -- when they weren't all that dominant to begin with!! (they lost 3 games in 2000, they lost the gold medal game in 2008, 2004 is the only year the lost start to finish).

I can see other claims for softball's exclusion -- that it requires facilities to be built that are exclusive to one sport in a Summer Olympics with too many sports, that it's only played in North America and Asia/Oceania really. And I can see why Europeans thought softball was women's baseball, so they dropped it. But to put US dominance on the list of reasons to drop the sport was completely ridiculous. And now the same total nonsense is being applied to women's hockey!!

The idea that sports with one or a few dominant countries should necessarily be dropped from the Olympics is something that came from the media. It had absolutely nothing to do with the real reason why softball was dropped.

But now, the media comes up with all these idiotic stories linking women's hockey to softball and saying it deserves the same fate. For years, they've reported it's in danger, when it never has been....

That is... until now. This is why Rogge's comments are so upsetting!! You report lies long enough, I guess they become the truth, a self-fulfilling prophecy! This scum of the earth has given credence to a legion of morons who hate being assigned to cover women's hockey in the Olympics and so instead of writing about the games, they write about how the wish the sport didn't exist so they didn't have to cover it.

There's nothing more against the Olympic ideal to tell athletes -- GO FOR THE GOLD, but no so much that you cause your sport to be dropped from the Olympics, and you ruin the hopes and dreams of all the little girls who look up to you. I don't understand why more people don't recognize how outrageous this attitude is from IOC, that the IOC would just echo the sentiments of some hack male journalists. It's infuriating.

 

[Angus]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Ditto, and I think it's a terrible violation of the Olympic spirit to tell any athlete that if they do TOO WELL, they'll be punished for having their spot dropped!!!

It was completely outrageous that US dominance was ever mentioned as a reason for softball's exclusion. It was a complete disgrace that the 2008 softball team had to constantly answer questions about how they felt about their success killing their sport -- when they weren't all that dominant to begin with!! (they lost 3 games in 2000, they lost the gold medal game in 2008, 2004 is the only year the lost start to finish).

I can see other claims for softball's exclusion -- that it requires facilities to be built that are exclusive to one sport in a Summer Olympics with too many sports, that it's only played in North America and Asia/Oceania really. And I can see why Europeans thought softball was women's baseball, so they dropped it. But to put US dominance on the list of reasons to drop the sport was completely ridiculous. And now the same total nonsense is being applied to women's hockey!!

The idea that sports with one or a few dominant countries should necessarily be dropped from the Olympics is something that came from the media. It had absolutely nothing to do with the real reason why softball was dropped.

But now, the media comes up with all these idiotic stories linking women's hockey to softball and saying it deserves the same fate. For years, they've reported it's in danger, when it never has been....

That is... until now. This is why Rogge's comments are so upsetting!! You report lies long enough, I guess they become the truth, a self-fulfilling prophecy! This scum of the earth has given credence to a legion of morons who hate being assigned to cover women's hockey in the Olympics and so instead of writing about the games, they write about how the wish the sport didn't exist so they didn't have to cover it.

There's nothing more against the Olympic ideal to tell athletes -- GO FOR THE GOLD, but no so much that you cause your sport to be dropped from the Olympics, and you ruin the hopes and dreams of all the little girls who look up to you. I don't understand why more people don't recognize how outrageous this attitude is from IOC, that the IOC would just echo the sentiments of some hack male journalists. It's infuriating.

What Dave said!

 

[Hux]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

When you think about it, Rogge's comments might even do more harm than good as far as trying to light a fire under some of the NGBs. Resources are spread thin enough in good times, let alone in a poor economy. Imagine a NGB trying to secure funds to allocate to a sector, in this case women's hockey, when the highest level of the sport (the Olympics) supposedly could be dropped before the development efforts by that NGB could come be realized.

 

[mwade]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Nice inclusion of female hockey players in Vanity Fair's online photo piece on Olympic athletes:

Julie Chu - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=8

Florence Schelling - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=9

Gigi Marvin/Brianne McLaughlin/Caitlin Cahow - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=30

Molly Engstrom - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=38

You may need to move your mouse across the photo that appears to get it to hop to the correct slide. Nice representation since it is only 39 slides long (last is an ad) and most feature only one athlete unless s/he perform as part of a pair.

(Guys were represented by Ryan Callahan and Zach Parise)

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: The 2010 Winter Olympics Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Nice inclusion of female hockey players in Vanity Fair's online photo piece on Olympic athletes:

Julie Chu - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=8

Florence Schelling - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=9

Gigi Marvin/Brianne McLaughlin/Caitlin Cahow - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=30

Molly Engstrom - http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2010/02/winter-olympics-slideshow-201002?slide=2#slide=38

You may need to move your mouse across the photo that appears to get it to hop to the correct slide. Nice representation since it is only 39 slides long (last is an ad) and most feature only one athlete unless s/he perform as part of a pair.

(Guys were represented by Ryan Callahan and Zach Parise)

For anyone interested, don't think for a minute... if we Canuckleheads had come out on the short end of the Men's Gold Medal Game...that we wouldn't have attempted to lay claim on the young fella that scored with :24 left. The son and former SSM standout of another TC hero, this time in the 1972 summit series...