The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Handy, if you want to accuse me of being way smarter than just about everybody else out here, I'll plead guilty as charged! Nice of you to finally notice. The problem is absolutists, which David Brooks somewhat touched on but only from a right wing perspective. In a representative democracy as opposed to a dictatorship or a monarchy sometimes you have to made deals with people you don't agree with. A failure to understand this concept has killed the GOP in this negotiation. They went from a 15%/85% split on taxes vs cuts to what? 1.2T in revenue out of 3.7T in total debt reduction is roughly 33%/67%. That's not moving in their direction, and if it turns out to be 2T in tax hikes instead of 1.2 they're even worse off.

I dont think you are smarter...in fact my opinion of your intelligence rivals that of Old Pio

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So we have the money collected, it's just that the government has borrowed and spent it already. That kind of rhetoric will get you labeled a Tea Bagger extremist.

Yeah guess which party was in power when much of that money was borrowed? I will give you a clue, you have their letters tattooed on your dick and a poster of their chimp like former leader on your wall

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So we have the money collected, it's just that the government has borrowed and spent it already. That kind of rhetoric will get you labeled a Tea Bagger extremist.

You are correct:

Between February 1-3, The Dakota Poll surveyed 400 registered voters in South Dakota who identified themselves as Tea Party supporters.

–83% said they would prefer to “leave alone” or “increase” Social Security.

–78% opposed cuts to Medicare prescription drug coverage, and 79% opposed cuts in Medicare coverage for physicians and hospitals.

–61% would support leaving federal food program funding alone or increasing it.

–96% would support “leaving alone” or “increasing” funding for veterans benefits.

–79% oppose cuts to military spending. 71% would oppose closing Ellsworth Air Force Base, even if a bipartisan base-closing commission made the recommendation.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So tell me again how thats NOT a Ponzi scheme?

Do you not understand the fundamentals of insurance and risk pooling? Or are you being intentionally obtuse?

 

[theprofromdover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I dont think you are smarter...in fact my opinion of your intelligence rivals that of Old Pio

Rover is dumber than a box of hammers?

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Or are you being intentionally obtuse?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

This is a hostage situation and your family is the hostage.

I prefer Keyser Soze method.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The state of California has taken out a loan for $5,000,000,000 in case the debt ceiling isn't raised and the federal government defaults.

Who would lend the state of California money? They must be getting great interest.

 

[Rover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Why is it every so often some conservative comes along and tries to say Social Security is a Ponzi scheme? My understanding of Ponzi schemes is that they don't have the money to fund current withdrawals. Social Security can fund what its promised for the next 30 years and it has a dedicated revenue stream (unlike a Ponzi scheme with relies on continued but no guaranteed new money). If you had told Bernie Madoffs victims that they had 30 years to withdraw all the money they gave to him, I'm guessing they'd be thrilled.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I am sure Rush said it the other day...or Hannity

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Why is it every so often some conservative comes along and tries to say Social Security is a Ponzi scheme? My understanding of Ponzi schemes is that they don't have the money to fund current withdrawals. Social Security can fund what its promised for the next 30 years and it has a dedicated revenue stream (unlike a Ponzi scheme with relies on continued but no guaranteed new money). If you had told Bernie Madoffs victims that they had 30 years to withdraw all the money they gave to him, I'm guessing they'd be thrilled.

Because everything that could face a funding shortfall is a ponzi scheme these days. No one remembers what an actual Ponzi scheme is.

A true Ponzi scheme involves using new victims to pay off the old ones in a pyramidal structure without ever having a hope or belief in paying off the last group of victims. The entire goal is to rip people off. Eventually you simply run out of new people, and the thing goes belly up.

The problem is people like, I don't know, wol4ine, think every system whereby one group of people pay for anothers' benefit is a Ponzi scheme. It's like saying, "this colorful item is red. Therefore all colorful items must be red."

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Ponzi Scheme

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to separate investors, not from any actual profit earned by the organization, but from their own money or money paid by subsequent investors

Sounds pretty similar to me. Maybe this is the best way to look at it. If someone in the private sector were to do what the gov't is doing with SS I'm pretty sure they'd be arrested.


We should seriously look at Chile's system for somthing that is more sustainable.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If it's a ponzi scheme then insurance itself is a ponzi scheme. Maybe we should abolish insurance and go entirely into the survival of the fittest mode.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

We should seriously look at Chile's system for somthing that is more sustainable.

So, essentailly then, instead of social security we'd all have pension plans. Kinda like what most Americans used to have and what many government workers still have today. And yet, I seem to recall the GOP is adamently against pensions as being too costly.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The state of California has taken out a loan for $5,000,000,000 in case the debt ceiling isn't raised and the federal government defaults.

Who would lend the state of California money? They must be getting great interest.

Given what the interest rates would be if the federal government does default, those rates will look like a steal, provided that credit is even available.

Given that the CARD act resulted in most credit cards going to a variable interest rate (prime +X%), if prime jumps dramatically some people are going to be in for quite the shock as their CC interest rates jump.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If it's a ponzi scheme then insurance itself is a ponzi scheme. Maybe we should abolish insurance and go entirely into the survival of the fittest mode.

The biggest difference is not everyone collects on their insurance. With insurance risk is factored in so that there is enough of a gap to cover expenses. I will concede to you that SS did start out basically as insurance for living too long. The average lifespan was years lower than when benefits kicked in. However, its morphed into something completely different now.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The biggest difference is not everyone collects on their insurance. With insurance risk is factored in so that there is enough of a gap to cover expenses. I will concede to you that SS did start out basically as insurance for living too long. The average lifespan was years lower than when benefits kicked in. However, its morphed into something completely different now.

I'm sure there are a few people here and there who kick it early and never collect social security. I suppose that as long as it's not 100%, it's technically "insurance."

 

[Rover]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

From the Onion:
Congress Continues Debate Over Whether Or Not Nation Should Be Economically RuinedJuly 20, 2011 |

WASHINGTON—Members of the U.S. Congress reported Wednesday they were continuing to carefully debate the issue of whether or not they should allow the country to descend into a roiling economic meltdown of historically dire proportions. "It is a question that, I think, is worthy of serious consideration: Should we take steps to avoid a crippling, decades-long depression that would lead to disastrous consequences on a worldwide scale? Or should we not do that?" asked House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA), adding that arguments could be made for both sides, and that the debate over ensuring America’s financial solvency versus allowing the nation to default on its debt—which would torpedo stock markets, cause mortgage and interests rates to skyrocket, and decimate the value of the U.S. dollar—is “certainly a conversation worth having.” "Obviously, we don't want to rush to consensus on whether it is or isn't a good idea to save the American economy and all our respective livelihoods from certain peril until we've examined this thorny dilemma from every angle. And if we’re still discussing this matter on Aug. 2, well, then, so be it.” At press time, President Obama said he personally believed the country should not be economically ruined.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

So, essentially then, instead of social security we'd all have pension plans. Kinda like what most Americans used to have and what many government workers still have today. And yet, I seem to recall the GOP is adamantly against pensions as being too costly.

Sounds more like a "required" 401K type program, exactly the privatization of SS that many in the GOP have been clamoring for.

Again, it is all part of the change over from a defined benefit system to a defined contribution, which is good for the higher earners (for whom SS has a negative ROI), and bad (very bad) for the lowest earners (who will spend "retirement" near the poverty level).

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Sounds more like a "required" 401K type program, exactly the privatization of SS that many in the GOP have been clamoring for.

Again, it is all part of the change over from a defined benefit system to a defined contribution, which is good for the higher earners (for whom SS has a negative ROI), and bad (very bad) for the lowest earners (who will spend "retirement" near the poverty level).

I think the people of Galveston would disagree with you.

Workers making $17,000 a year are expected to receive about 50 percent more per month on our alternative plan than on Social Security - $1,036 instead of $683. [See the Figure.]
Workers making $26,000 a year will make almost double Social Security's return - $1,500 instead of $853.
Workers making $51,000 a year will get $3,103 instead of $1,368.
Workers making $75,000 or more will nearly triple Social Security - $4,540 instead of $1,645.
Galveston County's survivorship benefits pay four times a worker's annual salary - a minimum of $75,000 to a maximum $215,000 - versus Social Security, which forces widows to wait until age 60 to qualify for benefits, or provides 75 percent of a worker's salary for school-age children.