The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If closing these clinics would drive up the number of abortions, then why not close the clinics that DO perform abortions??

Also, I don't think people attack family planning programs under the 'guise' of being opposed to abortion. I think we really oppose abortion.

Uh, cause that would drive up abortions as well.

Opposing abortion is fine. But, attacking family planning clinics to get at abortion is going about it the wrong way. There are many many many ways to reduce abortion that I and most liberals would support. This action was misplaced and stupid, and I think the quote is 100% accurate despite your objection.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Uh, cause that would drive up abortions as well.

Opposing abortion is fine. But, attacking family planning clinics to get at abortion is going about it the wrong way. There are many many many ways to reduce abortion that I and most liberals would support. This action was misplaced and stupid, and I think the quote is 100% accurate despite your objection.

Depends actually. Thing with Planned Parenthood is that they often don't provide an ultrasound to the pregnant woman. The folks I've spoken to tell me that 70-80 percent of women considering an abortion will not go through with it if they see an ultrasound of the unborn child. Which makes sense. So, if closing Planned Parenthood would lead women to go to other clinics where they are more likely to get an ultrasound, you potentially would see a significant reduction in abortions. Obviously there's more nuances to the situation, but that's pretty compelling in and of itself.

 

[pardonme]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Depends actually. Thing with Planned Parenthood is that they often don't provide an ultrasound to the pregnant woman. The folks I've spoken to tell me that 70-80 percent of women considering an abortion will not go through with it if they see an ultrasound of the unborn child. Which makes sense. So, if closing Planned Parenthood would lead women to go to other clinics where they are more likely to get an ultrasound, you potentially would see a significant reduction in abortions. Obviously there's more nuances to the situation, but that's pretty compelling in and of itself.

Everyone's point is that Planned Parenthood does a whole lot more than abortion. They are doing a ton more of providing birth control to people and preventing unwanted pregnancies than they are performing abortions to get rid of them. Closing down Planned Parenthood locations is likely to increase the number of unwanted pregnancies because there are underpriveledged people who rely on them for birth control and reproductive health.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Everyone's point is that Planned Parenthood does a whole lot more than abortion. They are doing a ton more of providing birth control to people and preventing unwanted pregnancies than they are performing abortions to get rid of them. Closing down Planned Parenthood locations is likely to increase the number of unwanted pregnancies because there are underpriveledged people who rely on them for birth control and reproductive health.

Correct.

I would like to attack it from the demand side, the right wants to attack it from the supply side.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

THE CLINICS BEING CLOSED DO NOT PROVIDE ABORTIONS.
It doesn't necessarily mean that women seeking abortions are going to seek another source. It DOES mean that women who normally would have avoided the need for an abortion at all may now require one. It DOES mean that women who were seeking exams for their health at these clinics must either find another source or go without.

This is nothing more than old white men trying to impose their morality on others.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

the right wants to attack it from the supply side.

They do supply.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Everyone's point is that Planned Parenthood does a whole lot more than abortion. They are doing a ton more of providing birth control to people and preventing unwanted pregnancies than they are performing abortions to get rid of them. Closing down Planned Parenthood locations is likely to increase the number of unwanted pregnancies because there are underpriveledged people who rely on them for birth control and reproductive health.

I thought abortion accounted for 90% of what Planned Parenthood does.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I thought abortion accounted for 90% of what Planned Parenthood does.

Thank you, Mr. Kyl.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Thank you, Mr. Kyl.

The birth of a truly inspired meme.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

If closing these clinics would drive up the number of abortions, then why not close the clinics that DO perform abortions??

Also, I don't think people attack family planning programs under the 'guise' of being opposed to abortion. I think we really oppose abortion.

My guess is they will close the clinics with the least comprehensive array of services because they are probably the smaller ones. You want to keep the largest clinics open to serve. Sadly this will probably mean there are more people that will end up making the trek to the larger ones with a crisis.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Depends actually. Thing with Planned Parenthood is that they often don't provide an ultrasound to the pregnant woman. The folks I've spoken to tell me that 70-80 percent of women considering an abortion will not go through with it if they see an ultrasound of the unborn child. Which makes sense. So, if closing Planned Parenthood would lead women to go to other clinics where they are more likely to get an ultrasound, you potentially would see a significant reduction in abortions. Obviously there's more nuances to the situation, but that's pretty compelling in and of itself.

You have posted this before. In my (granted it is only anecdotal) experience people who are hell bent on AB will get one no matter what. This business of trying to scare people into not going forward works on the people that will be screened out anyway at a good clinic. Much more effective to teach them not to get into the situation and provide an avenue for prevention.

If we would spend half as much effort (or $) on trying to teach kids/people about not taking the risk of pregnancy then this would be less of an issue In this state we had a lovely example. Pre Romney there was a lot of funding for school based clinics, increased education and outreach to the at risk populations including teens. The preg rate dropped like a rock. Romney cut the funding and the rate went up correspondingly and quickly. This was esp true in the underpriviledged areas like Fall River, Springfield, Lawrence and Lowell. In my town they do not offer any info until Jr in HS. I can tell you that when I see a kid for a check up and I ask the risk questions I do not need to look at the demographics tab to tell where they come from. This town is blatantly ignorant and more at risk than the city next door where they actually are again teaching prevention.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

The folks I've spoken to tell me that 70-80 percent of women considering an abortion will not go through with it if they see an ultrasound of the unborn child.

Citation, please. Closest I've seen following a google search is a similarly anecdotal claim by anti-abortion groups and Freepers, all citing to "various studies," "numerous statistics," and the like. Yet no one cites to the actual study(ies).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Correct.

I would like to attack it from the demand side, the right wants to attack it from the supply side.

Both sides.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Both sides.

I believe that. I still think you're going about it the wrong way supporting defunding planned parenthood, but I understand why.

I think it's a lot like the drug war. Attacking the supply side never seems to get us anywhere.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Citation, please. Closest I've seen following a google search is a similarly anecdotal claim by anti-abortion groups and Freepers, all citing to "various studies," "numerous statistics," and the like. Yet no one cites to the actual study(ies).

As I said, they are people I've spoken to at the place we volunteer at. They have all sorts of stories about people that come in, thinking they'll get an abortion, but when they see the baby on the ultrasound, they are blown away and say they couldn't abort it. But, sorry, the conversations we have aren't posted on the internet anywhere for your viewing.

But, it fits the general shift in this country, where, as more people gain more access to information about the baby forming within the womb, people become less and less comfortable with abortions.

Certainly if someone has their mind 100 percent made up to have an abortion, they likely would still (though probably not always, as it can be a real game changer to see what's actually inside your womb), but those folks could fall in the 20-30 percent that still do.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

As I said, they are people I've spoken to at the place we volunteer at. They have all sorts of stories about people that come in, thinking they'll get an abortion, but when they see the baby on the ultrasound, they are blown away and say they couldn't abort it. But, sorry, the conversations we have aren't posted on the internet anywhere for your viewing.

I really feel sorry for anyone that gets counseling from you.

 

[Almington]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

As I said, they are people I've spoken to at the place we volunteer at. They have all sorts of stories about people that come in, thinking they'll get an abortion, but when they see the baby on the ultrasound, they are blown away and say they couldn't abort it. But, sorry, the conversations we have aren't posted on the internet anywhere for your viewing.

But, it fits the general shift in this country, where, as more people gain more access to information about the baby forming within the womb, people become less and less comfortable with abortions.

Certainly if someone has their mind 100 percent made up to have an abortion, they likely would still (though probably not always, as it can be a real game changer to see what's actually inside your womb), but those folks could fall in the 20-30 percent that still do.

You think those people who believe that they want an abortion are going to get an ultra-sound when they can't find a safe and legal place for the procedure?

Scooby's right: You remove the demand, and the supply dissipates. Basic capitalism: everything is driven by demand, not supply.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I really feel sorry for anyone that gets counseling from you.

That is obnoxious. If Bob was pontificating and doing nothing to support his view or the people it affected maybe it would be less so but considering what he is doing I think it is uncalled for. Consider that if someone goes to where Bob is they have probably already made a decision to keep the pregnancy and he is providing help and support.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

That is obnoxious. If Bob was pontificating and doing nothing to support his view or the people it affected maybe it would be less so but considering what he is doing I think it is uncalled for. Consider that if someone goes to where Bob is they have probably already made a decision to keep the pregnancy and he is providing help and support.

That's why Foxton is the only person I have on my ignore list.

Of course if he was paying attention, he would have noted that in the past I've said I don't do counseling at this point. I'd have to go through training before doing so, as that's a serious responsibility. Maybe at some time later I'll get into that. A lot of my time is spent sorting through various donations and doing other miscellaneous things. Lots of baby clothes and other baby items. Funny thing, there was a sign above this rack that said "onsies". I asked my wife what onsies were (I pronounced it like Fonzie, minus the F). She said they are actually called onesies.

Last week a hispanic guy who was attending a class there came up to me, as his wife was looking at some of the baby stuff, and he thanked me and told me how wonderful it was that his wife and he had come across our place and how they had gotten so much help. Great stuff, and it makes haters like Foxton and their comments roll off my back a lot easier. Do I know how to fix everything in the world? Of course not, but I can do some good helping others when opportunities like this present themselves.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

That is obnoxious. If Bob was pontificating and doing nothing to support his view or the people it affected maybe it would be less so but considering what he is doing I think it is uncalled for. Consider that if someone goes to where Bob is they have probably already made a decision to keep the pregnancy and he is providing help and support.

I doubt it, with his prior posts and with his "oh if they just see the baby" attitude, I find it hard to believe he doesn't go out of his way to push his views. Such as PP is all for eugenics. And I see no reason why they are going there to already keep a pregnancy, he's specifically talked about how they go there and change their mind.