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The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I'm anti-death penalty because I'm pro-life. But does this argument work? I always thought it would be cheaper to off the guy than to feed and house him for 60 years, not to mention paying his guards, dentists, doctors, teachers, etc.

This article claims that it can cost up to 10 times as much to execute a prisoner than do life imprisonment. Ive seen some others that say similar things. Apparently the appeals process is one of the big money eaters.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

This article claims that it can cost up to 10 times as much to execute a prisoner than do life imprisonment. Ive seen some others that say similar things. Apparently the appeals process is one of the big money eaters.
You can buy a lot of prison guards for the price of one lawyer...
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I'm anti-death penalty because I'm pro-life. But does this argument work? I always thought it would be cheaper to off the guy than to feed and house him for 60 years, not to mention paying his guards, dentists, doctors, teachers, etc.

IIRC, the chemicals used in lethal injections are prohibitively expensive. It's also difficult to find qualified people who are willing to sell and administer them, because doing so is often considered against the Hippocratic Oath.

Then there's the costs of time on death row and the inevitable trip through the appeals process, but those are likely a wash versus a life sentence.

I'm personally mostly against the death penalty because of the fact it's irreversible. I'm not comfortable with the idea of throwing the switch, then discovering they made an oopsie years later (especially today with DNA evidence that can get people off years after the fact.) I'm only for it if there is absolute black and white evidence the guy/gal did something completely heinous, and if released will do it again.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Accounting for their benefits, total teacher compensation averages out to nearly 100k per year. While we are in love with the idea of quoting our compensation to friends simply in terms of our salaries/hourly wages, the simple fact of the matter is most of us get some sort of benefits from our employers, and that dramatically increases our total pay. As far as education spending is concerned, there are other ways to cap it / control it that go beyond teacher pay, but I suspect those methods aren't discussed because it's easier (for both sides) to fixate on teachers. The GOP does it because most teachers are unionized and strongly support the Democrats (just as other government workers tend to do). The Democrats do it because it humanizes the issue and allows them to claim your kids' education will dramatically suffer if we dare cut education spending.

Regarding your second point about the job creators, that too is screwed up. The GOP would never argue something in terms of a "living wage" as that is common left-wing parlance (just as "job creator" is right-wing). Their argument - such as it is - focuses on allowing the wealthy to keep more of their money in order to free that money up to be invested / spent. In a weird sort of way, it's something like the education debate in reverse, where they argue that if we dare mess with the upper income tax cuts/incentives, we'll destroy the economy because businesses will instantly lay people off and stop spending.

The long and short of it is both sides will apply nutty logic on any issue that suits them and scares people into voting whatever way is necessary to protect the entrenched interests.

According to politifact:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...siness-news-eric-bolling-says-wisconsin-teac/

51,000 per year avg. for a teacher. 25,000 in benefits. Net 76,000 per year.

58,000 per year avg. for private sector worker. 17,000 in benefits.

You need a Master's Degree to teach. To do the private sector thing you may have a bachelor's degree, you may not. Depends. Usually your pay with education is supposed to go up, yet Teachers are only making on avg. the same as anyone else who has a job.

Your 100,000 figure is too high. Where you getting your numbers?
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Beyond the numbers as far as benifits I would be curious how much that works out to per hour as many of the teachers I know work ridiculously long hours- nights, weekends and the weeks before school. They also supply a lot of stuff the school doesn't- in our schools' case-tissues, pencils, pens, sometimes paper, and sanitizer as well as incentive stuff, audiovisual stuff for the younger grades (not to mention the after-school activities they volunteer for.) Has anyone seen anything that factors all that stuff in? I know they technically aren't required to do much of that but many of them do.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

This article claims that it can cost up to 10 times as much to execute a prisoner than do life imprisonment. Ive seen some others that say similar things. Apparently the appeals process is one of the big money eaters.

Sounds about right. Ted Bundy took 10years to execute and cost $5million . so average $500k/yr vs $50/yr for maximum security prison.

I'm for death penalty, death is the only thing most serial killers fear. (Ted gave up body sites to extend his life, Green river killer Ridgway confessed to 74 murders for taking death penalty off the table)

I would like to see it stream lined and limit it to multiple murders (3+ ) so mostly reserved for serial-killers, hit-man, and mass-murderer.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

And upon reviewing other sources, benefits are a bit lower - although nobody seems to have a definitive number. Assuming the lower set of numbers is correct, you still end up with a total compensation of ~$80k in wisconsin, and that state ranks 23rd nationally - which would put that number somewhere around the national median. In any event, claiming a teacher "makes $50k" is misleading when looking at the total cost of employment (which matters a hell of a lot since we are paying that cost with tax dollars).

As far as how many hours teachers actually work per week on an annual basis, that would likely require delving into BLS data, and I don't have the stomach for that right now, les. :p
 
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

And upon reviewing other sources, benefits are a bit lower - although nobody seems to have a definitive number.

Looks like wsj has some of that numbers. last CBA they gave up some of these excellent benefits for new workers but got it all back and more when the city was flush with cash 3 years later. But I would imagine most teachers would take more cash up front for less benefits.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html
The showdown in Wisconsin over fringe benefits for public employees boils down to one number: 74.2. That's how many cents the public pays Milwaukee public-school teachers and other employees for retirement and health benefits for every dollar they receive in salary. The corresponding rate for employees of private firms is 24.3 cents.

Overall, for teachers and other employees, the district's contributions for pensions and Social Security total 22.6 cents for each dollar of salary. The corresponding figure for private industry is 13.4 cents. The divergence is greater yet for health insurance:

The district's contributions for health insurance of active employees total 38.8% of wages. For private-sector workers nationwide, the average is 10.7%.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

A teacher wrote to our local paper to point out that teachers pay their own wages via taxes on their income, so we have nothing to worry about... it all works out.
I mourn the lost opportunities for that teacher's students.
Don't be surprised... this is the Mining Gazette of Houghton. They regularly print letters from a guy who is firmly opposed to "reality" in a general way and the vast conspiracy of "realists" who put it forward to mislead the rest of us.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Looks like wsj has some of that numbers. last CBA they gave up some of these excellent benefits for new workers but got it all back and more when the city was flush with cash 3 years later. But I would imagine most teachers would take more cash up front for less benefits.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html

The point is that those teachers and other public workers are represented by evil unions and need to be eliminated.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Looks like wsj has some of that numbers. last CBA they gave up some of these excellent benefits for new workers but got it all back and more when the city was flush with cash 3 years later. But I would imagine most teachers would take more cash up front for less benefits.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703408604576164290717724956.html

And how often have teachers in Wisconsin (or any public employees) taken a lower percentage wage increase to preserve better fringe benefits?
 
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Accounting for their benefits, total teacher compensation averages out to nearly 100k per year. While we are in love with the idea of quoting our compensation to friends simply in terms of our salaries/hourly wages, the simple fact of the matter is most of us get some sort of benefits from our employers, and that dramatically increases our total pay. As far as education spending is concerned, there are other ways to cap it / control it that go beyond teacher pay, but I suspect those methods aren't discussed because it's easier (for both sides) to fixate on teachers. The GOP does it because most teachers are unionized and strongly support the Democrats (just as other government workers tend to do). The Democrats do it because it humanizes the issue and allows them to claim your kids' education will dramatically suffer if we dare cut education spending.

Regarding your second point about the job creators, that too is screwed up. The GOP would never argue something in terms of a "living wage" as that is common left-wing parlance (just as "job creator" is right-wing). Their argument - such as it is - focuses on allowing the wealthy to keep more of their money in order to free that money up to be invested / spent. In a weird sort of way, it's something like the education debate in reverse, where they argue that if we dare mess with the upper income tax cuts/incentives, we'll destroy the economy because businesses will instantly lay people off and stop spending.

The long and short of it is both sides will apply nutty logic on any issue that suits them and scares people into voting whatever way is necessary to protect the entrenched interests.

It gets funnier every time this comes up...first it was they made 75k based on their benefits, than over 80k now you say 100k. Yet most teachers are barely making ends meet...if that was true the GOP would be all about supporting them. ;)

Here is an idea, take your stats to any school and show them to the teachers and see how fast they either laugh at you or punch you in the face. Then, have them show you the health care "benefits" that apparently inflate their salary. (I saw the ones that the uber powerful Teachers Union got for the teachers in Minneapolis...hence why I put benefits in quotes) Seriously I can only speak for Minneapolis (and I know a bit about St. Paul) but 100k is not even close to what they make even if you close your eyes and double down :p ;) (please dont show any charts...I am soooooooooooooooooooo not in the mood ;) )

Now obviously I used a bit of reverse hyperbole and heavily referenced the Daily Show but my point still stands. The GOP think the rich dont make enough and the middle class make too much. They prove it every time they open their mouth or pass some piece of legislation.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

According to politifact:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...siness-news-eric-bolling-says-wisconsin-teac/

51,000 per year avg. for a teacher. 25,000 in benefits. Net 76,000 per year.

58,000 per year avg. for private sector worker. 17,000 in benefits.

You need a Master's Degree to teach. To do the private sector thing you may have a bachelor's degree, you may not. Depends. Usually your pay with education is supposed to go up, yet Teachers are only making on avg. the same as anyone else who has a job.

Your 100,000 figure is too high. Where you getting your numbers?

What always gets lost in the shuffle of the discussion (even by me, I never bring it up) is the debt incurred to become a teacher. Since it is often a Master's Degree program (like for example in Minnesota) you can be talking about massive amounts of loans. I wont name how big my number is, but lets just say it will make anyone cry a bit. Now that is fine, any education adds debt and post graduate degrees especially except that since teachers salaries arent on par with other post grad jobs, loan payments eat up a lot of money.

So that probably offsets those benefits anyways ;)

And I dont trust any info associated with the BS from Wisconsin...that whole situation was one big pile of crap...like Wisconsin :D
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

This is what's wrong with this country. The relevance to my posting wasn't that it was "someone", as you flippantly described it. The relevance was "who" that someone was.

Course your plan is the same as all the Republicans. Slash government spending and 0% taxes for job creators. It's an amazing world where someone asks rich people to pay the same percentage as poor people and the poor people are the ones playing the class warfare card. Gotta love it. No different then when we have a huge DEMAND problem in the economy and the solution is SUPPLY side.

To be fair, Scooby, 95% of what you post is utterly worthless as well. Every time you use the word "derp" or go off on one of your ultrahyperbolic, ultrasarcastic rants it undermines your position. If even 1/10th of your posts were as good as the one you posted about Eric Schmidt, you'd be taken a lot more seriously. Nothing personal, but I think you should reevaluate your choice to cast stones...
 
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Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

To be fair, Scooby, 95% of what you post is utterly worthless as well. Every time you use the word "derp" or go off on one of your ultrahyperbolic, ultrasarcastic, rants it undermines your position. If even 1/10th of your posts were as good as the one you posted about Eric Schmidt, you'd be taken a lot more seriously. Nothing personal, but I think you should reevaluate your choice to cast stones...

Considering I've taken more stones than probably any other poster on this board right now I seriously beg to differ. Also, you assume I care. I don't. My job is done because I've done and continue to do my duty. My duty is to remind everyone that Rome will burn. And it will. I can go on with a clear conscience.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

I'm for death penalty, death is the only thing most serial killers fear.

Disagree. I don't think any criminal expects to be caught...and hasn't even thought about the potential sentence as they commit a crime.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Considering I've taken more stones than probably any other poster on this board right now I seriously beg to differ. Also, you assume I care. I don't. My job is done because I've done and continue to do my duty. My duty is to remind everyone that Rome will burn. And it will. I can go on with a clear conscience.

*sigh*

No, seriously. I sighed after reading your post. Depressing.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Scooby wasnt always like this...the worse things got in the world and the worse they got in the threads on this board and the less he decided to care. He went full on cynic just like he did with the Vikes and Gophers, and for good reason. The fact is all the jokes and hyperbolic statments a lot of us made back in the day have come true. It used to be that making "Nero" critiques was a way to poke fun at the other side...now both sides not only admit it is happening, but are actively trying to make Rome burn. Some of us just gave up hope, Scooby went 100% caustic.
 
Re: The 112th Congress: Debt ceiling edition

Sounds about right. Ted Bundy took 10years to execute and cost $5million . so average $500k/yr vs $50/yr for maximum security prison.

I'm for death penalty, death is the only thing most serial killers fear. (Ted gave up body sites to extend his life, Green river killer Ridgway confessed to 74 murders for taking death penalty off the table)

I would like to see it stream lined and limit it to multiple murders (3+ ) so mostly reserved for serial-killers, hit-man, and mass-murderer.
I was under the impression that for the most part many serial killers are psychopaths/sociopaths. They are incapable of understanding/caring what is right or wrong and may of them don't consider getting caught because the rest of the world is 'too stupid' to catch them. Any CJ people on here who know if this is true?

Also I think there is a shortage of the chemicals (I won't use the term medicines) used in lethal injection. If I recall correctly the biggest supply is in Europe and they won't sell here for that purpose. Might be wrong- they had a story a few months ago and I was only half listening.
 
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