WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Congressmen say they will start carrying.
Congressmen say they will start carrying.
USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
- Thread starter joecct
- Start date
- Status
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
And there's a huge difference between "blaming" this thing on such talk, as opposed to using this incident as a moment to re-assess things.
It's like the 35W bridge collapse. All signs point to construction weakening the structure and beginning the failure; but that doesn't mean the calls for greater infrastructure funding are wrong. Quite the opposite, in fact.
And there's a huge difference between "blaming" this thing on such talk, as opposed to using this incident as a moment to re-assess things.
It's like the 35W bridge collapse. All signs point to construction weakening the structure and beginning the failure; but that doesn't mean the calls for greater infrastructure funding are wrong. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
QFT. That's why it would be nice if we all stepped back from turning this into yet another forum for our endless and pointless argument about moral superiority, and instead said "we all commit to a few basic ground rules of mature conduct." Going back and finger-pointing will only cause people who are attacked to dig their heels in and insist either that their rhetoric wasn't incendiary or even worse that they have a right to be incendiary and calls for calm are just posturing. That's the worst possible outcome of all this -- some sort of pseudo-intellectual defense of demagoguery. Instead we should all reject it wherever we find it. We should police our own, since policing by the other side will be dismissed as opportunism.
QFT. That's why it would be nice if we all stepped back from turning this into yet another forum for our endless and pointless argument about moral superiority, and instead said "we all commit to a few basic ground rules of mature conduct." Going back and finger-pointing will only cause people who are attacked to dig their heels in and insist either that their rhetoric wasn't incendiary or even worse that they have a right to be incendiary and calls for calm are just posturing. That's the worst possible outcome of all this -- some sort of pseudo-intellectual defense of demagoguery. Instead we should all reject it wherever we find it. We should police our own, since policing by the other side will be dismissed as opportunism.
Last edited:
WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Eh, I suppose. It does smack of opportunism to me though. And how exactly are we to re-assess things? Are such "target" maps better if they feature big red X's?
At some point, don't we have to trust people to not be dumbarses?
Eh, I suppose. It does smack of opportunism to me though. And how exactly are we to re-assess things? Are such "target" maps better if they feature big red X's?
At some point, don't we have to trust people to not be dumbarses?
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Second point first: yes, we do, and that's why it's not right to assign culpability to a politician who puts his opponent in the cross-hairs and then has the misfortune that the next day some nutcase takes him up on it literally.
But first point second: yes, a "target" map would be better if it featured a big red X, or even something silly like a Dem being sat on by an elephant and gradually smooshed out of the picture (taking that literally would really require a leap of imagination, and also some inside contacts at the zoo). It is a spectrum. Put it this way: it would be really bad to have a gunshot in the background or an animation with blood leaking from the incumbent's head, right? Well cross-hairs aren't nearly that bad, but they're still nasty and there's still a message of gross discourtesy.
I don't think anybody is going to be putting up those kinds of ads for a while, though it boggles my mind that the solution being proposed is that everybody pack.
Second point first: yes, we do, and that's why it's not right to assign culpability to a politician who puts his opponent in the cross-hairs and then has the misfortune that the next day some nutcase takes him up on it literally.
But first point second: yes, a "target" map would be better if it featured a big red X, or even something silly like a Dem being sat on by an elephant and gradually smooshed out of the picture (taking that literally would really require a leap of imagination, and also some inside contacts at the zoo). It is a spectrum. Put it this way: it would be really bad to have a gunshot in the background or an animation with blood leaking from the incumbent's head, right? Well cross-hairs aren't nearly that bad, but they're still nasty and there's still a message of gross discourtesy.
I don't think anybody is going to be putting up those kinds of ads for a while, though it boggles my mind that the solution being proposed is that everybody pack.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
But even if such a map did feature an X, don't you think it would still be blamed if some ill befell that congressperson?
Does anyone honestly believe that if Congress had spent the past 4 years or so holding hands, singing kumbaya, passing the health care bill by a combined 535-0, etc. that this attack wouldn't have happened? I think that's ridiculous personally, and a willful ignorance of the facts in this case.
A controversy here in Wisconsin the past week has been this bumper sticker:
I think it's way overblown personally, but there's been some of the same anti-Palin rhetoric directed at the Wisconsin Dems for the sticker. My personal view is just to roll my eyes. It's silly, move on.
But even if such a map did feature an X, don't you think it would still be blamed if some ill befell that congressperson?
Does anyone honestly believe that if Congress had spent the past 4 years or so holding hands, singing kumbaya, passing the health care bill by a combined 535-0, etc. that this attack wouldn't have happened? I think that's ridiculous personally, and a willful ignorance of the facts in this case.
A controversy here in Wisconsin the past week has been this bumper sticker:
I think it's way overblown personally, but there's been some of the same anti-Palin rhetoric directed at the Wisconsin Dems for the sticker. My personal view is just to roll my eyes. It's silly, move on.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
It's not really the target posters that bother me that much. It's the folks who actually propose "2nd Amendment Remedies" that bother me. That's just inciting violence in my book. That's why Palin gets brought up so much.
Kum Bay Ya wouldn't have prevented this lunatic from carrying out his deed.
It's not really the target posters that bother me that much. It's the folks who actually propose "2nd Amendment Remedies" that bother me. That's just inciting violence in my book. That's why Palin gets brought up so much.
Kum Bay Ya wouldn't have prevented this lunatic from carrying out his deed.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
The close identification of one side of the political spectrum with gun rights is certainly embarrassing, but of course gun owners themselves believe that their guns are about personal safety, not intimidation.
If any person or group were ever to use a weapon to try to get their political point across, I would assume everyone would abandon and condemn them as a terrorist, regardless of their stance on 2nd amendment issues.
The close identification of one side of the political spectrum with gun rights is certainly embarrassing, but of course gun owners themselves believe that their guns are about personal safety, not intimidation.
If any person or group were ever to use a weapon to try to get their political point across, I would assume everyone would abandon and condemn them as a terrorist, regardless of their stance on 2nd amendment issues.
Last edited:
WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
How is that inciting violence though? What kind of violence has it incited?
How is that inciting violence though? What kind of violence has it incited?
unofan
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Seriously?
It's not legally indictable as inciting a riot or anything, but it's certainly farther down the same 1-10 rating scale. It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to read between the lines where "2nd Amendment remedy" = "we always have the right to armed revolt."That's clearly a threat of future violence (albeit in a non-specific, generalized manner).
Seriously?
It's not legally indictable as inciting a riot or anything, but it's certainly farther down the same 1-10 rating scale. It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to read between the lines where "2nd Amendment remedy" = "we always have the right to armed revolt."That's clearly a threat of future violence (albeit in a non-specific, generalized manner).
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
I thought Sharon Angle was the "2nd Amendment remedies" person?
These things are contextual. I work with gun owners all the time. Their reaction to that was it reinforced the worst stereotypes about them. Pretty much the same reaction as liberals have when Al Sharpton speaks.
I thought Sharon Angle was the "2nd Amendment remedies" person?
These things are contextual. I work with gun owners all the time. Their reaction to that was it reinforced the worst stereotypes about them. Pretty much the same reaction as liberals have when Al Sharpton speaks.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
A 2nd Amendment Remedy by definition is violent. I don't see how you can see it any other way. Just because no one has acted on it yet is meaningless.
A 2nd Amendment Remedy by definition is violent. I don't see how you can see it any other way. Just because no one has acted on it yet is meaningless.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Sure. But isn't there a difference between saying "The Founders envisaged a society with weapons available to them to overthrow tyrants should it come to that" and "Gird your loins, grab your guns, we're going hunting for politicians!"
The limited quotes I've seen, I've certainly interpreted them as more along the lines of the first statement. Though perhaps there is a reference I'm unfamiliar with.
And Scooby, I do think there has to be instances of it actually inciting violence, otherwise it joins a litany of about a bajillion other things that could cause violence.
Sure. But isn't there a difference between saying "The Founders envisaged a society with weapons available to them to overthrow tyrants should it come to that" and "Gird your loins, grab your guns, we're going hunting for politicians!"
The limited quotes I've seen, I've certainly interpreted them as more along the lines of the first statement. Though perhaps there is a reference I'm unfamiliar with.
And Scooby, I do think there has to be instances of it actually inciting violence, otherwise it joins a litany of about a bajillion other things that could cause violence.
Last edited:
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
It's pure insanity to even imply that a "2nd Amendment Option" exits. Pure fallacy. But fine, you want to put it in the "Video Game Violence Bin" more power to you.
It's pure insanity to even imply that a "2nd Amendment Option" exits. Pure fallacy. But fine, you want to put it in the "Video Game Violence Bin" more power to you.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Certainly, and I think context plays a key role in determining which one is meant when a speaker refers to "2nd amendment remedies." I would think a high school civics class or other academic settings where the teacher/professor is talking about such things clearly falls in the former.
Now, a politician talking about it at a rally decrying a recently passed bill and stating he/she will fix it using every remedy available...it's at least closer to the "gird your loins" speech than the academic setting described above. Add in a potentially armed crowd, and it probably leans a little further that way.
Now, on that 1-10 scale, the academic setting's probably a 1 and this might only be a 2-2.5 (with Westboro Baptist Church being around a 7.5 and the KKK marching through the streets as a 9.5). But the point is it's still somewhat of a call to arms, and the worry isn't that rational people will take it as such, but irrational ones.
Certainly, and I think context plays a key role in determining which one is meant when a speaker refers to "2nd amendment remedies." I would think a high school civics class or other academic settings where the teacher/professor is talking about such things clearly falls in the former.
Now, a politician talking about it at a rally decrying a recently passed bill and stating he/she will fix it using every remedy available...it's at least closer to the "gird your loins" speech than the academic setting described above. Add in a potentially armed crowd, and it probably leans a little further that way.
Now, on that 1-10 scale, the academic setting's probably a 1 and this might only be a 2-2.5 (with Westboro Baptist Church being around a 7.5 and the KKK marching through the streets as a 9.5). But the point is it's still somewhat of a call to arms, and the worry isn't that rational people will take it as such, but irrational ones.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Yeah, I agree with that I suppose. However, by the very definition, aren't irrational people... irrational? I guess my point is, if it isn't that, it'll be something else that drives them to do terrible things.
Yeah, I agree with that I suppose. However, by the very definition, aren't irrational people... irrational? I guess my point is, if it isn't that, it'll be something else that drives them to do terrible things.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Fox News CEO Roger Ailes: Fox And 'The Other Side' Need To Tone Down Rhetoric
Hmmm. If "Fox News" was "news" and "objective", it wouldn't have a "side" would it? So Roger Ailes just admitted that Fox News takes sides. Thank you.
Fox News CEO Roger Ailes: Fox And 'The Other Side' Need To Tone Down Rhetoric
Hmmm. If "Fox News" was "news" and "objective", it wouldn't have a "side" would it? So Roger Ailes just admitted that Fox News takes sides. Thank you.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
He certainly stuck his foot in it with that comment. Bill-O may have a meltdown tonight over it. I know he's going to have a meltdown about the "leftist" media and how they handled the story.
He certainly stuck his foot in it with that comment. Bill-O may have a meltdown tonight over it. I know he's going to have a meltdown about the "leftist" media and how they handled the story.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!
Former Senator Bob Kerrey on what motivated Laughner:
Come on Bob.
Though I'm in wholehearted agreement with him on the ill and troubled line. His mugshot was just released, he's got this sick grin on his face.
Former Senator Bob Kerrey on what motivated Laughner:
Come on Bob.Though I'm in wholehearted agreement with him on the ill and troubled line. His mugshot was just released, he's got this sick grin on his face.
Last edited:
- Status