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The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

"But we also know that the very founders that wrote those documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States," Bachmann added.

Is this actually true? I seem to remember many of the founders being slave owners and not having any interest in changing any aspect of being a slave owner.

Am I wrong?

Honestly I am just so dumbfounded by the statement that I can't even process.
 
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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Is this actually true? I seem to remember many of the founders being slave owners and not having any interest in changing any aspect of being a slave owner.

Am I wrong?

Your right. Notably Jefferson and Washington...although both said they didn't think slavery was 'right' and in the end, Washington freed his slaves. The two big problems with Bachmanns comments IMO are the fact that they did not 'work tirelessly' nor really at all to free the slaves...and that when slavery ended, on average the founders had been dead about 40 years.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Your right. Notably Jefferson and Washington...although both said they didn't think slavery was 'right' and in the end, Washington freed his slaves. The two big problems with Bachmanns comments IMO are the fact that they did not 'work tirelessly' nor really at all to free the slaves...and that when slavery ended, on average the founders had been dead about 40 years.

The other part of her quote that's disturbing is the complete disregard for the Native Americans that were already here.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The other part of her quote that's disturbing is the complete disregard for the Native Americans that were already here.

Native Americans chose to move from fertile land to reservations where nothing grows.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The whites just needed some lebensraum and the red skins weren't really using it anyways.

The first real chink I saw in the libertarian armor was their rationalization of white settlement in terms of their "desert island" property rights theory. Evidently, the Indians weren't "improving" the land, so even though it had supported them for hundreds of years it wasn't really theirs. So if you're scoring at home, genocide is OK as long as you build strip malls.

Von Mises and Rothbard make great sense... until you take a breath and think about it for a minute. In this they are identical to Marx, and that's not surprising, since this is what you get when you posit social laws that precede social negotiation. You wind up with all sorts of tortuous rationalizations and patently ridiculous armchair theories.

If cultivation and enclosure are deemed to be the hallmarks
of establishing occupancy and use, then that large portion of the Indian claimed
land which was never "homesteaded" must be viewed as actually ownerless (and
thus open to settlement by the actual first user).
Claiming that the American Indians, by virtue of being the first users and
occupiers of the continent, were its rightful owners, Rosalie Nichols maintains that
"use" is decided upon according to the condition and natural resources of the land,
the level and particular type of technology of the occupants, and the desires of
the owner.43 Undoubtedly, the Indians rightfully owned the land that they cultivated
and upon which they erected their wigwams and shelters. The main question to
settle is whether they righrfuily owned the land upon which they regularly or
sporadically hunted.
Lysander Spooner in the mid-nineteenth century asserted that those lands which
the Indians merely roamed over in search of game, could not be said to have been
rightfully owned by them." Rightful ownership of unoccupied lands is established
by either actually living upon the land, or improving it, or bestowing other useful
labor upon it. "Nothing short of this actual possession can give any one a rightful
ownership of wilderness lands, or justify him in withholding it from those who
wish to occupy it." He based his assertions on the principle that occupation and
use meant more than standing upon a portion of the North American continent
and claiming possession of it. To establish ownership a person must bestow some
valuable labor upon the land. In these cases he holds the land in order to hold the
labor which he had put into it.45 Similarly, Rothbard has written that the buUc of
Indian claimed land was not settled and transformed by the Indians, and that the
new European settlers were justified in ignoring the Indians' vague abstract claims
because they knew they were the first to actually cultivate and enclose the lands
upon which they settled.46

So I can swing by Lew Rockwell's house tonight and appropriate every square inch of his lawn that he isn't using to pasture goats.
 
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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The first real chink I saw in the libertarian armor was their rationalization of white settlement in terms of their "desert island" property rights theory. Evidently, the Indians weren't "improving" the land, so even though it had supported them for hundreds of years it wasn't really theirs. So if you're scoring at home, genocide is OK as long as you build strip malls.
No no, elbow room.
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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The first real chink I saw in the libertarian armor was their rationalization of white settlement in terms of their "desert island" property rights theory. Evidently, the Indians weren't "improving" the land, so even though it had supported them for hundreds of years it wasn't really theirs. So if you're scoring at home, genocide is OK as long as you build strip malls.

So if the Germans had turned Poland into a Wal*Mart...
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Conservatives make me laugh.

Tim Pawlenty, former Minnesota governor and likely Republican presidential candidate, says President Barack Obama should apologize in his State of the Union address for pulling the country down a liberal path over the past two years, according to Politico.

pawlenty, obama, speech, apologizeHere’s how Obama might word it, Pawlenty tells Politico: “I realize that I overreached. ... I’m sorry, and now I’m going to work ... to take the country and the Congress in a different direction that is more mainstream.”

Pawlenty lists his beefs with Obama: “I disagreed with him on the stimulus bill; I disagreed with him on the bailouts ... I disagree with him on how he protects unions and public employee union organizations at the expense of taxpayers. ... I disagree with him ... as it relates to the missile defense system in the Czech Republic and Poland. ... I disagree with him on healthcare.”

Tell you what, Timmy. As soon as Bush apologizes for destroying the financial well being of the United States of America and all its citizens, Obama will apologize for overreach.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I don't know, that request from Pawlenty isn't terribly different from the line Obama took in his post election press conference is it?

In fact, I'd be surprised if Obama didn't say something along those lines tonight. Not to the degree that Pawlenty wants to hear of course, but it's hardly outrageous.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The other part of her quote that's disturbing is the complete disregard for the Native Americans that were already here.
Who cares? Most of them are dead, alcoholics, or are running profitable casinos.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The first real chink I saw in the libertarian armor was their rationalization of white settlement in terms of their "desert island" property rights theory. Evidently, the Indians weren't "improving" the land, so even though it had supported them for hundreds of years it wasn't really theirs. So if you're scoring at home, genocide is OK as long as you build strip malls.
But Genocide WAS OK until 1945. When it went to an industrial scale, then it became "bad form".

The Japanese used our destruction of the Native Americans and the Filipinos to justify their actions towards the Chinese and Koreans. If it was good enough for the Europeans, why shouldn't the Asiatics be allowed to do the same thing? Nice reasoning, but faulty. Why? Because history is written by the victors.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Who cares? Most of them are dead, alcoholics, or are running profitable casinos.
Actually few tribes own casinos and even fewer have profitable ones. On top of that they have to pay a good deal of the income to the state government.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

In her rebuttal to the SOTU, Bachmann is going to call for a balanced budget amendment, creationism in schools and promise everyone a unicorn.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Will John Boehner cry tonight? I'd lean toward no, but not confident about it.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Will John Boehner cry tonight? I'd lean toward no, but not confident about it.
Oh that would be just delicious.
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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Will John Boehner cry tonight? I'd lean toward no, but not confident about it.

I think he already teared up when Obama said his name.

The SOTU is sponsored by ING Direct and Home Depot.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Actually few tribes own casinos and even fewer have profitable ones. On top of that they have to pay a good deal of the income to the state government.
You realize I was being sarcastic, right?

And per this article http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/challenges/casinos.html over 200 tribes own 400 "gaming operations" as of 2006. Don't know how many of those are actual casinos, but 200+ tribes is not a number I'd characterize as "few". Profitability is an issue though, since 1/8 of the casinos generate 2/3 of the revenue.

As far as what they pay to state governments, that depends on whatever agreement they signed with the states in which the casinos operate - their profits are not taxed (unless that was agreed to).
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Is that thing in front of Boehner some sort of tear collecting device?? :)
 
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