The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Repealing Health Care would generate jobs? Really? That's funny cause the Bush Tax Cuts didn't generate jobs so I'm wondering what your evidence is that repealing Health Care will?

Oh, my fault, I said create when a better word would probably have been "save".

For example, the health care law includes $210 billion in payroll taxes and $52 billion in the employer mandate. You don't think those taxes are a barrier to creating jobs? The National Federation of Independent Business (an admittedly partisan organization) says that these measures could cost us 1.6 million jobs by 2014. Is that insignificant?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Did you use your crystal ball for that?

That's fair. It's obviously a projection of course, but find something that either party has proposed that wasn't?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

How about this for low-hanging fruit: increase the budget of whoever is looking for fraud in the medicare/medicaid/social security programs (since fraud is waste in its purest form as entitlements are going to people who shouldn't be getting them). Next, increase the budget of the IRS and devote all of it to audits. Put a goal in place of auditing 1/5 of all tax returns for incomes above $200,000 as a starting point. Given the low audit rate currently occurring, I believe a fair number of people are cheating (obvious incentive: if you think your odds are low of getting caught, there's a pretty strong temptation to fudge the numbers).

Between the increased policing of suspicious claims from the entitlement programs and increased auditing of tax payers, we could probably net a couple hundred billion per year to the treasury - and perhaps more (it's hard to say just how much fraud is occurring and how badly people are underpaying their taxes, but the number is probably substantial).

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Oh, my fault, I said create when a better word would probably have been "save".

For example, the health care law includes $210 billion in payroll taxes and $52 billion in the employer mandate. You don't think those taxes are a barrier to creating jobs? The National Federation of Independent Business (an admittedly partisan organization) says that these measures could cost us 1.6 million jobs by 2014. Is that insignificant?

And the Bush Tax Cuts created how many jobs? I have a number in mind and it looks like a big fat circle.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

And the Bush Tax Cuts created how many jobs? I have a number in mind and it looks like a big fat circle.

I don't think I mentioned the Bush Tax Cuts once. It's a fantastic bogeyman for you though, I must admit.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I don't think I mentioned the Bush Tax Cuts once. It's a fantastic bogeyman for you though, I must admit.

It's the same theory isn't it? The numbers you cited was money taken away from small business, right? And the Bush Tax Cuts were sold as money that was going to be taken away from small business? Right? You heard the arguments. I know I did.

Yet, all that money that wasn't taken from small business (Bush Tax Cuts) didn't generate 1 net job. Not 1. So, I fail to see how repealing Health Care is going to net 1 job. Yet, the lies that you posted from the Republican talking points is trying to make me believe that were going to lose 1.6 million jobs?

Please.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

You asked what they did to save jobs. I answered. You responded predictably. Whatever. We could go back on forth on this forever.

Incidentally, what's your plan to create jobs? What would you do if you had the power?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

That's fair. It's obviously a projection of course, but find something that either party has proposed that wasn't?

I know. I just couldn't resist seeing your snark and raising you. It was (for once) deliberately obnoxious.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I know. I just couldn't resist seeing your snark and raising you. It was (for once) deliberately obnoxious.

I wasn't the one who made the crystal ball reference on the other thread, but I figured it was something along those lines.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Incidentally, what's your plan to create jobs? What would you do if you had the power?

Full frontal nudity. And chimps.

No, wait. That's my plan to save network television.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

You asked what they did to save jobs. I answered. You responded predictably. Whatever. We could go back on forth on this forever.

Incidentally, what's your plan to create jobs? What would you do if you had the power?

Research and Development. Higher Education. Transportation, and High Tech Marshall Plan. Trade Deals. Energy independence Marshall Plan. I think there are some viable alternatives out there now that aren't corn or soybeans which I think are worse for the environment then they are worth. Algae anyone?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Research and Development. Higher Education. Transportation, and High Tech Marshall Plan. Trade Deals. Energy independence Marshall Plan. I think there are some viable alternatives out there now that aren't corn or soybeans which I think are worse for the environment then they are worth. Algae anyone?

My Marshall Plan is colonizing other worlds, but different strokes.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Research and Development. Higher Education. Transportation, and High Tech Marshall Plan. Trade Deals. Energy independence Marshall Plan. I think there are some viable alternatives out there now that aren't corn or soybeans which I think are worse for the environment then they are worth. Algae anyone?

Holy platitudes! Yes, those are good ideas, but do you have any specifics? Higher education for one. What do you change? How do you change it? How do you pay for it?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Holy platitudes! Yes, those are good ideas, but do you have any specifics? Higher education for one. What do you change? How do you change it? How do you pay for it?

I consider Higher Education an investment. Unlike the State of Minnesota which considers it a burden and somewhere to cut. For every dollar I invest in Higher Education I receive 2 dollars in taxes back. That's my plan. America doesn't invest anymore, that's our biggest problem.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Research and Development.

That's vague. The government already funds a ton of research via the NIH and DoD. What specifically do you have in mind here? And how would you fund it? Remember, any initiative that is a net cost to the treasury would have to be made up somewhere else (and then some) given our budget problems.

Higher Education.

Again, this is vague. Are you talking about the financial aid side of the equation (Pell Grants, subsidized federal student loans, etc), or are you talking about something else (i.e. your aforementioned comment concerning R&D)?

Transportation, and High Tech Marshall Plan.

Please elaborate on this.

Trade Deals.

Meaningless, since every administration tries to sign these. Obama just signed one with S Korea, for example (and I applaud his administration for doing so).

Energy independence.

The entire economy pretty much depends on oil, coal, and natural gas. While this phrase "energy independence" sounds appealing, it is going to take a very long time to accomplish. If you want to accelerate the process, the obvious solution is to jack up the gas tax and slap a tax on carbon emissions(cap and trade is stupid and needlessly complex / bureaucratic - just assess a tax and be done with it). As soon as the entire population realizes just what it's going to cost them to continue burning massive quantities of fossil fuels via taxation, behaviors will shift (and the private sector will spend like crazy to develop more efficient vehicles and lower-emission technologies to grab market share as businesses and individuals attempt to minimize the hit). This is why the CAFE standards are so idiotic - we really truly don't need them (and the cost of enforcing the regulations) in a high gas tax scenario.

I think there are some viable alternatives out there now that aren't corn or soybeans which I think are worse for the environment then they are worth. Algae anyone?

There are highly efficient / clean cars that use diesel (this is more widespread in Europe for some reason). The algae production of synthetic oil is intriguing but must be scaled up dramatically to be meaningful. Ethanol is idiotic and we should stop pursuing that boondoggle. If we want the stuff that badly, drop tariffs with Brazil and import the stuff they're producing - they've got a ****ing national industry that produces a ****load of it.

BTW, for education, I think they should create a "track" system for high school students. The students who obviously aren't going to be well served being prepped for college should be steered toward trade schools where they can learn skills and get fairly decent jobs. The current approach of trying to get everyone ready for college is horribly inefficient and wasteful.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

BTW, for education, I think they should create a "track" system for high school students. The students who obviously aren't going to be well served being prepped for college should be steered toward trade schools where they can learn skills and get fairly decent jobs. The current approach of trying to get everyone ready for college is horribly inefficient and wasteful.

There's truth to this, but I have some serious qualms. Firstly, I don't think the education system should be set up to most efficiently train mindless robots for corporate America any more than I think college football should be a publicly-funded NFL minor league. Secondly, even if 99 out of 100 high school students in BFE West Virginia are never going to "get" Hamlet, one of them will, and even in its horrible current state public school is a way of exposing that one smart kid to his chance to escape the mines.

The thing about being an elitist is the recognition that the next Michelangelo may be have been unlucky enough to be born to Ma and Pa Kettle. And giving that kid a chance to find his art is frankly worth ten million unemployed auto workers. IMHO.

Thirdly, what little class amicability we have left comes from having kids from all sorts of backgrounds and all sorts of future plans shoved together in a public HS for four years. It's like the conscript army during WW2, where the upper class twit of the year (the one whose Daddy didn't get him a deferment) actually met and worked with the Great Unwashed. It was the closest the social classes ever got to each other in the US. That's been compromised already by white flight and Crazy Christian Homeschooling, and we would make it even worse by separating our HS classes into Eloi and Morlocks the way they do in France.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

There's truth to this, but I have some serious qualms. Firstly, I don't think the education system should be set up to most efficiently train mindless robots for corporate America any more than I think college football should be a publicly-funded NFL minor league.

Trade schools don't produce mindless robots, unless you think plumbers, chefs, electricians et al are "mindless".

Secondly, even if 99 out of 100 of high school students in BFE West Virginia are never going to "get" Hamlet, one of them will, and even in its horrible current state public school is a way of exposing that one smart kid to his chance to escape the mines.

I think it's pretty clear after a year or so of high school who is likely to be able to handle the more difficult classes and have a legitimate chance at succeeding in college.

Thirdly, what little class amicability we have left comes from having kids from all sorts of backgrounds and all sorts of future plan shoved together in a public HS for four years.

Between private schools and home schooling, just how true is this nowadays? I'm willing to bet there's defacto segregation even to this day - not because schools are barring entry, but because parents don't want their kids in a gang-infested cesspool of a school (may or may not be true - I'm simply going by what the perception of certain schools is likely to be).

Social engineering aside, is what we have now really worth the crushing debt that many now face after obtaining a college degree that has led to few if any employment prospects? I'm all for a broad education, but the bottom line is the first priority for these young adults is to acquire skills and or knowledge that make them employable. Pursuing a degree is all well and good, but if they come home with $50,000+ in debt and can't get a job... well, then what?

 

[walrus]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Trade schools don't produce mindless robots, unless you think plumbers, chefs, electricians et al are "mindless". ?

Pliumbers and Electricians can make good money, better than alot of College Grads and good techs contined to work through this downturn

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I agree with all your points for the most part. I just think we need to proceed carefully if we're going to emulate the European education model. Education already has a large "self-fulfilling prophesy" effect and I can't help thinking that if we set it up to produce a certain result, rather than let it float more freely, we are hamstringing out future to our present, limited worldview.

It's possible that creating and then FULLY FUNDING a serious track for plumbers, chefs, and electricians, and not viewing that as the "alternative" to something "normal" but just as its own thing, would actually help shrink wage inequality between the professions and reward excellence. One could argue that our system solely rewards power hitters, where we should have a separate track for middle infielders and, for that matter, pitchers. Then the very best at all positions would have the best compensation (and also the best status), rather than having a shortstop regarded as a "failed outfielder." It's patently ridiculous that the bottom graduate of a law school has higher social status than the top graduate of a community college, and that's what we're stuck with now.

There's a problem, though. The money comes from the people who have spent their whole lives shoving precious little Erica towards State U., even though precious little Erica has (edit: no interest in the Great Works) and she needed 16 private tutors to somehow program her to get that 600 on her verbal SAT. Those people don't want Erica's even (edit: less academically-inclined, by very good with his hands) brother, Forest, to be the world's best electrician, they want him to be an attorney. So they aren't going to fund Community College at the same rate they do State U. because their values don't accept it. Is that dumb? Yes, it is. But it will warp public wants.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

So they aren't going to fund Community College at the same rate they do State U. because their values don't accept it. Is that dumb? Yes, it is. But it will warp public wants.

A public education campaign couldn't hurt. Rather than these idiotic PSAs that tell people to "talk to their kids" or other such BS, how about pointing to the fact that donating money to smaller schools is likely to have a much more significant impact than dumping money on the likes of Harvard who already have way more than they know what to do with?

This reminds me - what about these so-called retraining programs the Federal government funds for the unemployed? How many of these programs fund / assist people in going back to school for economically viable training?