Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

See I disagree. Unless they pull you out of the car and make you take a drunk test I dont see roadblocks as unreasonable searches. If they just stop me and ask me a couple of questions so they can smell my breath or whatever that is not like them forcing themselves into my house to see if they could find something. I have been pulled over quite a few times for ticky tack stuff so cops can find reason to test me. I dont feel it is intrusion, it is a waste of time because I never drive anywhere near the limit but I take the breathalyser and go on my way.

I am a hardcore 4th Amendment guy, but for my safety and for public safety there are things that should be allowed as reasonable. Road blocks are pretty much as far as I go though.

But that's exactly what they are doing: Pulling you over and making you take a drunk test. If you refuse, that's probable cause. It doesn't matter if it's your house, the Fourth Amendment doesn't make that stipulation.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

You, your house, your car, whatever. They're all included in the language. If they stop you just to smell your breath in order to establish probable cause, what's the difference between them peeking into your house to see if there's probable cause?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

You, your house, your car, whatever. They're all included in the language. If they stop you just to smell your breath in order to establish probable cause, what's the difference between them peeking into your house to see if there's probable cause?

Risk.

Composite Risk Index = Impact of Risk Event x Probability of Occurrence​

The probability of drunk drivers killing people is far higher than the probability of anybody up to something in their house hurting somebody else. A car is an active instrument. The point of being "safe and secure in your home" is to prevent oppression of the home-dweller. Piloting a car is simply a lot more dangerous to other people and thus can be controlled more.

That's why licensing the right to drive is not a violation of civil liberties but licensing the right to be in a house sure would be.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

So what your saying is, the worse the CRI, the more comfortable you are trampling the Constitution?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

So what your saying is, the worse the CRI, the more comfortable you are trampling the Constitution?

I'm saying the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I'm saying the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

Is there a death toll or dollar amount in damages you have in mind where say... the first amendment can be ignored? Order of magnitude would suffice

 

[Kepler]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Is there a death toll or dollar amount in damages you have in mind where say... the first amendment can be ignored? Order of magnitude would suffice

It's not "ignoring" the first amendment (or in this case the 4th and 14th amendments) any more than the "shouting fire in a crowded theater" example "ignores" the first amendment.

BTW, the Orwellian State is not the greatest beneficiary of roadblocks. These guys are.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

There are few things more irritating than when you are right.

I've told my wife (now with the TSA, and I don't think there's a worse job today) that the better way is covert profiling. It's certainly not foolproof -- they are recruiting blue-eyed devils too -- but it would be a force multiplier. And yes it would absolutely suck and it would (still) be an invasion of civil liberties and it would be a slippery slope and it would be racist when Ma and Pa Kettle got into the act, let's not minimize those things. It's just better than wasting all our resources casting an enormously broad net in the name of racially-blind policy.

The solution to racist Japanese internment camps is not to deport all of us to them. That's called learning the wrong lesson.

Wouldn't want to cause distress on the eve of our great American holiday. This notion that any form of profiling of passengers automatically becomes Bull Connor with a cattle prod or Dr. Mengele with a riding crop is illogical, silly and counter productive. Yet the vast majority of posters who have objected to even CONSIDERING changes in our system use this as their primary (only?) argument. To me, this is text book reactionary.

As I understand it, the Israelis question every passenger. Based on their answers, body language and other factors, some are questioned, uh, more closely. It is not racial profiling in any meaningful sense of the word. Israel's tens of thousands of Arab citizens pass through quite easily. A young guy traveling alone, who bought a one way ticket, in cash, with a shaky story about going to Mackinac Island for the waters would, I assume, almost certainly be pulled out of line for more questioning. And if it would take various intrusive procedures to satisfy them that this guy didn't present a threat, he would be subjected to them.

These Israeli interrogators are college graduates, exhaustively trained, working in a zero tolerance atmosphere--one mistake and they're fired. Does that sound like the unionized Barney Fifes we've got fondling us now? And the Israelis certainly understand that not all terrorists are from the Middle East, and to assume they are means people are going to die. So why the resistance? Like Japanese imperial marines on Okinawa.

Potential problems? Certainly. Fool proof? Nothing is. Several orders of magnitude more likely to catch a terrorist than what we're doing now? No need to ask.



edit: all future references to Barney Fifes, Rent a cop school dropouts and the like who work for TSA will exclude one young lady whose husband posts here.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

So you'd be all for being handcuffed, sedated, and naked every time you fly? Afterall, that would present the fewest risks possible.

None of your scenarios are remotely plausable for general security enforcement for large percentages of travellers from a time and resource standpoint, so I'm not spending much time thinking about them. Point stands...I prefer high levels of security.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Point stands...I prefer high levels of security.

That apply to warrantless wiretaps?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

None of your scenarios are remotely plausable for general security enforcement for large percentages of travellers from a time and resource standpoint, so I'm not spending much time thinking about them. Point stands...I prefer high levels of security.

Just not the "high levels of security" that might actually stop an attack or capture a terrorist. But we are protecting ourselves from children, the handicapped, cancer survivers and nuns.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Sometimes your logic is like listening to my teenager. Lots of leaps from logic to extremes.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Sometimes your logic is like listening to my teenager. Lots of leaps from logic to extremes.

Tell that wonderful child to teach you how to find the definition of sarcasm, and the list of terror plots thwarted and terrorists arrested by that aggregation of tool boxes at the TSA.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Tell that wonderful child to teach you how to find the definition of sarcasm, and the list of terror plots thwarted and terrorists arrested by that aggregation of tool boxes at the TSA.

That wonderful child has read some of what you have been writing. He just shook his head and said some grown ups are nuts.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

That wonderful child has read some of what you have been writing. He just shook his head and said some grown ups are nuts.

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[5mn_Major]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

That apply to warrantless wiretaps?

Not relevant. Go back and read the original post.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

That wonderful child has read some of what you have been writing. He just shook his head and said some grown ups are nuts.

You're okay with him talking about you that way? Either that or you've got a lot of work to do, because he argues with as much irrelevancy as you do, pop.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Not relevant. Go back and read the original post.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Not relevant. Go back and read the original post.

I read it the first time. The question still applies. Do you go through a patdown each morning before hopping on 394? If not, I'll send the ghost of Frank Wisner and some of his black tie disciples down that way to give you a real going over. After all, with all those bullets flying it would be smart to err on the side of caution and travel on the spur with the highest security, no?

Unless of course you want to specifically state there's a difference between, say, a private airline and the government doing such things? That would at least somewhat remedy your typical gross inconsistency.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Unless of course you want to specifically state there's a difference between, say, a private airline and the government doing such things? That would at least somewhat remedy your typical gross inconsistency.

Private airlines still fly in the "public" airways, which rely on government airports, air traffic controllers, navigational aids, etc. The government still has an interest in who is flying on private airplanes, the same as it has an interest in who is driving privately owned cars on public roads. Roadblocks aren't just for government-employed drivers.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Wouldn't want to cause distress on the eve of our great American holiday. This notion that any form of profiling of passengers automatically becomes Bull Connor with a cattle prod or Dr. Mengele with a riding crop is illogical, silly and counter productive. Yet the vast majority of posters who have objected to even CONSIDERING changes in our system use this as their primary (only?) argument. To me, this is text book reactionary.

As I understand it, the Israelis question every passenger. Based on their answers, body language and other factors, some are questioned, uh, more closely. It is not racial profiling in any meaningful sense of the word. Israel's tens of thousands of Arab citizens pass through quite easily. A young guy traveling alone, who bought a one way ticket, in cash, with a shaky story about going to Mackinac Island for the waters would, I assume, almost certainly be pulled out of line for more questioning. And if it would take various intrusive procedures to satisfy them that this guy didn't present a threat, he would be subjected to them.

These Israeli interrogators are college graduates, exhaustively trained, working in a zero tolerance atmosphere--one mistake and they're fired. Does that sound like the unionized Barney Fifes we've got fondling us now? And the Israelis certainly understand that not all terrorists are from the Middle East, and to assume they are means people are going to die. So why the resistance? Like Japanese imperial marines on Okinawa.

Potential problems? Certainly. Fool proof? Nothing is. Several orders of magnitude more likely to catch a terrorist than what we're doing now? No need to ask.



edit: all future references to Barney Fifes, Rent a cop school dropouts and the like who work for TSA will exclude one young lady whose husband posts here.

Again, you are right. We should have policies with oversight and safeguards, not dismiss the policies out of hand because of the worst possible consequence. This same argument applies to bank regulation, environmental protection, state health care, etc.

(The wife aint a TSO. Her job is to patiently explain to Congressmen with short attention spans and Terrell Owens egos why their angry constituents can't circumvent the laws the Congressman himself voted into place if "they are really in a rush" when they're on the no-fly list and the FBI has specific interest in them. Essentially she is a fireman working for arsonists.)