Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

[unofan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

You are completely f*d up man. When the next plane blows up because of a terrorist threat, it's people like you who will be first in line saying we need tougher security measures. What the H-E-double bendy straws is the problem of going through a scanner so you don't get the pat down? What's the big f*n deal? if you don't like the normal measures, deal with the consequences and shut the f up!

Well, your screen name is apropos, since your post indicates you're one giant chickens*** who's scared of the boogeyman.

 

[unofan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Isn't there consent once you hand your ID to TSA? I still say profiling is where we need to be but the ACLU would be all over that

You can make an implied consent argument, though the TSA seems to be relying upon the "administrative search" doctrine, not implied consent. Probably for good reason, since implied consent only really applies for licensed activities (driving, hunting, etc.), and you don't need to be licensed to be a passenger.

My understanding of administrative searches is that there's still a reasonableness or balancing test. Precedent says the courts are likely to uphold it, though it's not guaranteed (and certainly the new procedures go well beyond the metal detecor/wanding).

 

[walrus]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

no, that gets you a massive fine and possible jail time. There's certain airports where they let pilots bypass security, but they are rare.

I have one in my area, thats why I was wondering

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Let me deal with the second one first: since the primary griping about alleged over exposure to radiation has come from ALPA, I'm not the slightest bit concerned about their concerns. Evidently it doesn't strike you as moronic to "scan" pilots for bombs, since a pilot determined to bring down his plane can do that without a weapon--and one already has. 'Course he was a Muslim, so we can't take THAT into consideration.

As to your first point, we already announce every terrorist plot uncovered, so why would one uncovered in an aiport be any different? We can't keep many of the most classified activities of our government secret (see Wikileaks) but a couple of Barney Fife's find a bomb in an American Tourister two suiter and they just chalk it up to another day at the office and say nothing? You have an impressively naive view of how the world actually works. These two hypothetical dudes would hire an agent, appear on Oprah and "write" a book.

well it's a mistake to infer anything other than what was said, so no do not infer whether I believe something is ok or not based on this post, and further it wouldn't be to the point anyway.
Second, my neighbor is the head of the local tsa. nuff said on that.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

well it's a mistake to infer anything other than what was said, so no do not infer whether I believe something is ok or not based on this post, and further it wouldn't be to the point anyway.
Second, my neighbor is the head of the local tsa. nuff said on that.

What?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

You can make an implied consent argument, though the TSA seems to be relying upon the "administrative search" doctrine, not implied consent. Probably for good reason, since implied consent only really applies for licensed activities (driving, hunting, etc.), and you don't need to be licensed to be a passenger.

My understanding of administrative searches is that there's still a reasonableness or balancing test. Precedent says the courts are likely to uphold it, though it's not guaranteed (and certainly the new procedures go well beyond the metal detecor/wanding).

And officers need PC (weaving, driving way too slowly, etc) before they can pull you over and administer an implied consent breath test. Otherwise, that would mirror what goes on in airports, where everybody is a suspect and no probable cause is required.

 

[Chickens@NU]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Am I, man? I started this thread and have posted dozens of times that my preference is for security that actually looks for terrorists. Taking nude photos of children and feeling up nuns doesn't fit that description, IMO. Let me ask you: where is the line for you? Or is there a line? Is there anything our ham handed public "servants" could dream up in the name of "security" that you would resist? Anything? As to your exercise in prescience, I would still be advocating security measures that work, man.

OK, ok. I'll take back the f*d up comment. But I still believe that you (and many other Americans) are blowing this out of porportion. People see someone freak out/flip out/ become resistant and they blow it out of proportion. It happens with everything. If we started racially profiling people to find the ones who "look like terrorists" then back lash from the other side. And If that were the case, you would have terrorists starting to make themselves look like those who won't be profiled to get away with sh!!!t. It's a doubled edged sword that they have to fall on because they're damed if they do, damed if they don't. And in the day and age of everything going on the internet and things going viral (Check out Northeastern State of Mind for an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhl6o-pdN9I (I love that video, had to plug it)) you have to become a mindless idiot to be left alone.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Wondering if the backlash may be from some of the vast majority of folks who have no problem with the new policy (I saw some stat that said 81% were OK with it) and get behind the people who are 'opting out'. I predict bloodshed somewhere today from a person delayed who doesn't agree with the opt out thing and misses a connection.

What ever happened to intelligent discourse on things? Now everything is either absolutely horrifying or perfect. No one seems to be able to see the middle road.

 

[pirate]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Sale on tin foil hats this Black Friday! 10% off if you're a homophobe.

It's a stupid policy and should be ended, but there's nothing evil about TSOs. They're the same poor schmucks you'll find doing crap work everywhere. The policymakers are the same apparatchiks you'll find working middle management at Proctor and Gamble or the RNC (although admittedly many of the latter may have self-loathing gay tendencies, judging by their Congressional caucus and clerical constituents).

Although most evil is banal, not all banality is evil.

It would be GREAT, however, if the thing that finally brought down Bush's Security State was an irrational fear of butch lesbians. Talk about being hoist by your own petard.

We could solve these problems by only hiring cute TSOs and getting to choose the one who searches us. "Helllllllllllllo, sailor!"

So let me get this straight...you are suggesting that if we combine Hooters and TSA then all the *****in stops? If we are going to waste hundreds of millions of dollars a year to "increase safety" by a millionth of a point then I say we do it Kepler's way.

Chicken - you walked into this party a bit late, I think we're well past the idea that what we are currently doing prevents air terrorism. Unless the bad guys decide, just to further F with us, to blow up a plane by combining 15 3 oz bottles of 'shampoo' once on the plane, what we are doing now amounts to tiger repellent. The only thing you can be sure of is that a future attack won't be conducted by a 75 year old lady taking over a plane with a nail file and a bottle of Mountain Dew.

If you were running a company to prevent hackers from getting into crucial code, would you run a mundane, repetitive process on the shoulders of disinterested government workers? Even the night watchman at the local graveyard knows to mix up the routine, not be predictable and change the tactics once in a while.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

So let me get this straight...you are suggesting that if we combine Hooters and TSA then all the *****in stops? If we are going to waste hundreds of millions of dollars a year to "increase safety" by a millionth of a point then I say we do it Kepler's way.

Chicken - you walked into this party a bit late, I think I'm well past the idea that what we are currently doing prevents air terrorism. Unless the bad guys decide, just to further F with us, to blow up a plane by combining 15 3 oz bottles of 'shampoo' once on the plane, what we are doing now amounts to tiger repellent. The only thing you can be sure of is that a future attack won't be conducted by a 75 year old lady taking over a plane with a nail file and a bottle of Mountain Dew.

If you were running a company to prevent hackers from getting into crucial code, would you run a mundane, repetitive process on the shoulders of disinterested government workers? Even the night watchman at the local graveyard knows to mix up the routine, not be predictable and change the tactics once in a while.

FYP. I don't think everyone in here would agree with the assumption that these measures are not going to help anything. Not sure if the measures will do anything or not but it is wishful thinking that everyone is on the same page with you here.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Wondering if the backlash may be from some of the vast majority of folks who have no problem with the new policy (I saw some stat that said 81% were OK with it) and get behind the people who are 'opting out'. I predict bloodshed somewhere today from a person delayed who doesn't agree with the opt out thing and misses a connection.

Your information is at best incomplete. 81% were in favor of the body scanners last week, but now that's down to 64% this week. 17% drop in one week.

On the "enhanced" pat downs, it's 50/48 against them.

Not that popular opinion is the be all and end all on this thing, but to say that 81% are OK with it is quite misguided.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

And officers need PC (weaving, driving way too slowly, etc) before they can pull you over and administer an implied consent breath test. Otherwise, that would mirror what goes on in airports, where everybody is a suspect and no probable cause is required.

Actually, cops only need "reasonable suspicion" to pull you over, which is a lower standard than probable cause. Also, note that roadblocks to "search" for specific crimes (such as DWI or illegal immigrants) have been found to be legal, even though no standard of reasonable suspicion has been met in those cases.

In the end, I think that when these scanners and pat-downs (feel-ups?) are tried in court, the courts will rule that they are justified by the public's interest in safety, so long as the searches are applied to ALL passengers (as a roadblock is applied to all drivers) so as not to violate the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment.

 

[pardonme]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

What ever happened to intelligent discourse on things? Now everything is either absolutely horrifying or perfect. No one seems to be able to see the middle road.

That really doesn't get anything changed.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Unless the bad guys decide, just to further F with us, to blow up a plane by combining 15 3 oz bottles of 'shampoo' once on the plane, what we are doing now amounts to tiger repellent. The only thing you can be sure of is that a future attack won't be conducted by a 75 year old lady taking over a plane with a nail file and a bottle of Mountain Dew.

Thankfully, terrorists don't tend to be smart (clever, maybe, and desperate, and either cowardly or brave depending on the intersection of their politics and yours, but not smart), but if they were, they would do one of their little dance routines in some dippy Anytown, USA with about 15k population. There are two nightmare scenarios for us in terms of our own psychotics actually instituting something like a true police state. One is nuking a city, and I'm pretty sure we all agree that would be an enormous catastrophe in its own right. But apparently, that's really, really hard to do, since so far it hasn't happened and you have to think everybody with a holy book and a grudge masturbates themselves to sleep with it. The other is a hostage crisis in some cow town with heads being chucked out of windows every 15 minutes and terrorists live-blogging their manifestos in real time. Cleetus already thinks the Dominican guy down the street is an A-rab. That would just about wrap it up for American civil liberties.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

What ever happened to intelligent discourse on things? Now everything is either absolutely horrifying or perfect. No one seems to be able to see the middle road.

Once each side has demonized the other, any middle road is seen as cutting a deal with the devil. That's why the outrage merchants have done real damage. It's not like they changed anybody's mind -- you're either smart enough to see through them or you're not, and nothing's going to change that. But they have created an environment where advocates of compromise are implicitly challenging them, since their whole shtick is based on the idea that the other side is not stupid but damned. That's where religious wars come from and why they are nearly impossible to stop.

 

[walrus]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I heard on the news this morning, O'hare will will get 1.8 million passengers out this 5 day weekend holiday, wonder how that compares to total air traffic in Israel? I also heard America accounts for over half of the worlds Air Passengers, again showing how tough it will be to a security system in place that doesn't **** people off.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Your information is at best incomplete. 81% were in favor of the body scanners last week, but now that's down to 64% this week. 17% drop in one week.On the "enhanced" pat downs, it's 50/48 against them.

Not that popular opinion is the be all and end all on this thing, but to say that 81% are OK with it is quite misguided.

I hadn't seen that. Looks like the media has done their job well.

That really doesn't get anything changed.

See below. All the inflammatory stuff does is justify the crazies on both sides and disgust the middle.

Once each side has demonized the other, any middle road is seen as cutting a deal with the devil. That's why the outrage merchants have done real damage. It's not like they changed anybody's mind -- you're either smart enough to see through them or you're not, and nothing's going to change that. But they have created an environment where advocates of compromise are implicitly challenging them, since their whole shtick is based on the idea that the other side is not stupid but damned. That's where religious wars come from and why they are nearly impossible to stop.

 

[pirate]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Thankfully, terrorists don't tend to be smart (clever, maybe, and desperate, and either cowardly or brave depending on the intersection of their politics and yours, but not smart), but if they were, they would do one of their little dance routines in some dippy Anytown, USA with about 15k population. There are two nightmare scenarios for us in terms of our own psychotics actually instituting something like a true police state. One is nuking a city, and I'm pretty sure we all agree that would be an enormous catastrophe in its own right. But apparently, that's really, really hard to do, since so far it hasn't happened and you have to think everybody with a holy book and a grudge masturbates themselves to sleep with it. The other is a hostage crisis in some cow town with heads being chucked out of windows every 15 minutes and terrorists live-blogging their manifestos in real time. Cleetus already thinks the Dominican guy down the street is an A-rab. That would just about wrap it up for American civil liberties.

I'm more worried about water supply, tainted food etc. it's not that they'd bring us to chaos through that but they'd further disrupt our way of life. Let's say they were smart and clever...they'd be behind introducing the invasive fish and plants into our lakes and rivers...they'd introduce mad cow and continue the ecoli scares...they'd send people with cholera, small pox, swine flu, bird flu, SARS, whatever, into the country every day...they'd poison a large water supply, introduce some crop eating bugs. That stuff requires very little money and some human capital but goes a long way towards scaring everybody everywhere in the US while eating away at our economy, causing us to spend on safety etc.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Thankfully, terrorists don't tend to be smart (clever, maybe, and desperate, and either cowardly or brave depending on the intersection of their politics and yours, but not smart), but if they were, they would do one of their little dance routines in some dippy Anytown, USA with about 15k population. There are two nightmare scenarios for us in terms of our own psychotics actually instituting something like a true police state. One is nuking a city, and I'm pretty sure we all agree that would be an enormous catastrophe in its own right. But apparently, that's really, really hard to do, since so far it hasn't happened and you have to think everybody with a holy book and a grudge masturbates themselves to sleep with it. The other is a hostage crisis in some cow town with heads being chucked out of windows every 15 minutes and terrorists live-blogging their manifestos in real time. Cleetus already thinks the Dominican guy down the street is an A-rab. That would just about wrap it up for American civil liberties.

I've been scared of something along these lines happening for nearly a decade. You're right...if they were smart something like that is exactly what they would do. Small to mid-size town(s). I have some other ideas that are similar to yours and would accomplish the same things but I probably shouldn't go chucking them around. Next thing you know the Patriot Act will be tapping into my tubes.

I've said before: "Give me unlimited funding and 20 people willing to die for me and I could raise more hell than anyone could fathom."

Let's hope the turrists never wise up and start to implement such things.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I'm more worried about water supply, tainted food etc. it's not that they'd bring us to chaos through that but they'd further disrupt our way of life. Let's say they were smart and clever...they'd be behind introducing the invasive fish and plants into our lakes and rivers...they'd introduce mad cow and continue the ecoli scares...they'd send people with cholera, small pox, swine flu, bird flu, SARS, whatever, into the country every day...they'd poison a large water supply, introduce some crop eating bugs. That stuff requires very little money and some human capital but goes a long way towards scaring everybody everywhere in the US while eating away at our economy, causing us to spend on safety etc.

Or they could shoot up a mall in a random smaller town about once every six weeks. Think DC sniper on a grand scale. In terms of instilling fear in the populace that would work wonders.

Tubes tapped?