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Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

MinnesotaNorthStar said:
After the Robbie Bina hit the rule was mandatory 5 and game misconduct, not DQ. The last year or so they have added a 2:00 minor for CFB, so it's the ref's discretion.

IMO, it should be 5/game...with an option for a DQ. All DQ's should be reviewed by the league to see if additional games should be added on on a case by case basis.
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The 2 has always been an option. The DQ and Game has always been there as well and its always been the discretion of the official as to what to give. But there was an adjustment made I believe 4 years ago that anything head first into the boards should warrant a DQ. But again it is the officials discretion to make that call but that is how the rule is.

I believe all DQ's are reviewed but it is awful tough to add suspensions to a hit from behind. IMO, additional suspensions should be added for intentional actions. I just think it is awful tough to prove intent on a hit from behind.

I see your points and a couple you made have been in place for some time now. Whether or not they are enforced is on the officials but how it should be handled has been in place for years, which is what you suggested.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

redhawkman10 said:
The 2 has always been an option. The DQ and Game has always been there as well and its always been the discretion of the official as to what to give.
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This is not correct. The season after the Robbie Bina incident, the NCAA changed the rule.
Rule Clarifications
GRAND FORKS, N.D. -- Officials say they plan to get tough on illegal hits from behind during college hockey games.

The hits, which used to be called boarding or charging penalties, will now be called checking from behind. Violators will receive an automatic five-minute major and game misconduct.

"Anything from behind is going to be called checking from behind," said Greg Shepherd, the Western Collegiate Hockey Association supervisor of officials. "A game disqualification (for the offense) is a possibility, too."

A game disqualification means a player is ejected and must sit out the next game, as well. A game misconduct means the player is ejected only for the rest of the ongoing game.

The crackdown on checking from behind comes a few months after University of North Dakota defenseman Robbie Bina broke his neck as a result of an illegal hit by Denver forward Geoff Paukovich in the WCHA Final Five tournament in St. Paul.

Bina missed the end of last season and will miss this season as he recovers from the injury.

Paukovich was given a two-minute minor penalty for the hit. He was later suspended for a game after it was reviewed.
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I believe all DQ's are reviewed but it is awful tough to add suspensions to a hit from behind. IMO, additional suspensions should be added for intentional actions. I just think it is awful tough to prove intent on a hit from behind.
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I would be surprised if all DQs are reviewed in the WCHA. I heard commissioner Bruce McLeod say in a radio interview last week that he "doesn't like to ref the game after the game." That tells me that in the WCHA, there's a conscious effort NOT to add additional discipline to calls made on the ice. From my perspective, the WCHA goes out of its way to have its member schools discipline players and coaches rather than the league doing it.

I agree that it's almost impossible to judge a player's intent on any given hit, but I don't think that should be the determining factor on whether additional discipline is added by the league. Here are the two factors that should matter most:

1. The outcome of the hit. If a player was injured on an illegal hit, additional suspension is warranted. The length of the suspension should be related to the severity of the injury.

2. The player has an established history of delivering dangerous or illegal hits. If a player is showing a tendency towards these types of hit, the league needs to send a message that it won't tolerate this type of play and sit him one or more games.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

PCM said:
This is not correct. The season after the Robbie Bina incident, the NCAA changed the rule.




I would be surprised if all DQs are reviewed in the WCHA. I heard commissioner Bruce McLeod say in a radio interview last week that he "doesn't like to ref the game after the game." That tells me that in the WCHA, there's a conscious effort NOT to add additional discipline to calls made on the ice. From my perspective, the WCHA goes out of its way to have its member schools discipline players and coaches rather than the league doing it.

I agree that it's almost impossible to judge a player's intent on any given hit, but I don't think that should be the determining factor on whether additional discipline is added by the league. Here are the two factors that should matter most:

1. The outcome of the hit. If a player was injured on an illegal hit, additional suspension is warranted. The length of the suspension should be related to the severity of the injury.

2. The player has an established history of delivering dangerous or illegal hits. If a player is showing a tendency towards these types of hit, the league needs to send a message that it won't tolerate this type of play and sit him one or more games.
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There has always been an option for a 2 min penalty for a check from behind. The rule was made more clear but that option has been avaialble for a long long time, atleast the last 13 yrs I have been involved. There was changes like you pointed out to clarify some grey areas in the rule and take less of the responsibility away from the officials. If you read the first line of the article it tells the story. They plan to get tougher, the options have been there but the rule wasn't clear enough to make it an automatic 5 instead of having the option.

As for the additional suspensions, if you read previous post I wasn't refering to check from behinds. Additional suspensions would be reviewed on DQ or match penalties i.e instigating a fight, leaving the bench/penalty box during an altercation, or intent to injury penalties.

You will never see anything like you suggested, it is just too tough to make a distinct ruling on intent. Accidents happen and hockey is a tough physical game. Guys are going to get hurt, you can't suspend guys long term because of a hit. If you do it for check from behinds you will have to do it for kneeing penalties etc. I understand the frustration but it just isn't feasable, IMO to suggest that. No one ever wants to see an injury, but the DQ isn't used enough IMO. I think if they started using the DQ more and these guys were missing games it would clean it up a little and would be a good start.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

redhawkman10 said:
You will never see anything like you suggested, it is just too tough to make a distinct ruling on intent. Accidents happen and hockey is a tough physical game. Guys are going to get hurt, you can't suspend guys long term because of a hit.
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I disagree. A league can do anything it wants to. If it wants to suspend players for the season because of a CFB, it could. It won't, but it could. Hell, if you wanted to get USA Hockey in on it, it could ban players from the sport that injure another player with a CFB, intentional or not. I know it's tough to prove intent, but if you consider yourself a great hockey mind, it's not too hard.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

I apologize for sort of derailing the thread with my initial comments on the Genoway hit (and for continuing the rerailment...). I took a look at the film of the hit again, and I have a hard time believing that at this level of hockey a player does not have the skill or capability to refrain from throwing that hit. Genoway had already been rubbed off the puck against the boards and it was a good two seconds later he got smoked with what appeared to be an elbow to the back of the head (it might simply have been the height difference). I find it extremely difficult to believe the player that hit him did not want to inflict the maximum possible impact, particularly since he skated from the blue line to make the hit. It is naiive to believe that such a hit from behind directly into the boards will not risk injuring a player. Those factors, in aggregate, impy intent to me and the kid should sit. A long time. Will it take someone getting paralyzed before some action is taken?
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

redhawkman10 said:
There has always been an option for a 2 min penalty for a check from behind.
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Again, you are wrong. I cited proof in the form of an NCAA news release. I'm sorry that you can't see it, but you are wrong. I don't have time to look it up, but my recollection is that for two seasons after the 04-05 season, checking from behind was an automatic major and game misconduct. The referee had no discretion to call it any other way.

As for the additional suspensions, if you read previous post I wasn't refering to check from behinds. Additional suspensions would be reviewed on DQ or match penalties i.e instigating a fight, leaving the bench/penalty box during an altercation, or intent to injury penalties.
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The only part of your previous post I referred to was intent to injure. I agreed with you that judging intent was very difficult. However, knowing the outcome of an illegal or dangerous hit and knowing a player's tendency to commit those types of infractions is not difficult to discern.

You will never see anything like you suggested, it is just too tough to make a distinct ruling on intent.
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For the third time, I agree. I also believe that given the current leadership of the WCHA and the apparent unwillingness of the NCAA to hold the league accountable for player safety, the type of added discipline I suggested will not happen.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

Beavers are putting on a lot of offensive pressure. BSU 1-0 after first.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

PCM said:
Again, you are wrong. I cited proof in the form of an NCAA news release. I'm sorry that you can't see it, but you are wrong. I don't have time to look it up, but my recollection is that for two seasons after the 04-05 season, checking from behind was an automatic major and game misconduct. The referee had no discretion to call it any other way.


The only part of your previous post I referred to was intent to injure. I agreed with you that judging intent was very difficult. However, knowing the outcome of an illegal or dangerous hit and knowing a player's tendency to commit those types of infractions is not difficult to discern.


For the third time, I agree. I also believe that given the current leadership of the WCHA and the apparent unwillingness of the NCAA to hold the league accountable for player safety, the type of added discipline I suggested will not happen.
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You didn't cite proof, what you cited simply said they will now call it tighter and automatically give a 5 and Game with DQ option. I am not wrong, I know I am not wrong because I have been involved at this level for 13 yrs. The 2 min option for a check from behind has been around for a long long time they just chose to call a charge or boarding rather than check from behind.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

Sloe Gin said:
I disagree. A league can do anything it wants to. If it wants to suspend players for the season because of a CFB, it could. It won't, but it could. Hell, if you wanted to get USA Hockey in on it, it could ban players from the sport that injure another player with a CFB, intentional or not. I know it's tough to prove intent, but if you consider yourself a great hockey mind, it's not too hard.
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I agree with you that a league can do whatever they want, but like you said I don't think they will. As for your reference to USA hockey, they do a much better job with these type of plays than the NCAA does and will add additional suspensions for multiple infractions and give the officials the ability to call it in a way where multiple suspensions are warranted. So maybe the NCAA should mirror USA hockey more in that regard.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

OSU wins 2 - 1 in ot on a PP goal (K. Reed)
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

PCM said:
Again, you are wrong. I cited proof in the form of an NCAA news release. I'm sorry that you can't see it, but you are wrong. I don't have time to look it up, but my recollection is that for two seasons after the 04-05 season, checking from behind was an automatic major and game misconduct. The referee had no discretion to call it any other way.


The only part of your previous post I referred to was intent to injure. I agreed with you that judging intent was very difficult. However, knowing the outcome of an illegal or dangerous hit and knowing a player's tendency to commit those types of infractions is not difficult to discern.


For the third time, I agree. I also believe that given the current leadership of the WCHA and the apparent unwillingness of the NCAA to hold the league accountable for player safety, the type of added discipline I suggested will not happen.
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I don't think we are understanding each other, after reading your post again. You are refering to post Bina hit after the 04-05 season they are calling everything a 5 and I agree. I was talking before that season and even now there is a option for a 2 min check from behind in the rules but it isn't used because they want all check from behind's into the boards called a major. In the open ice if you hit someone from behind it is a 2 min penalty. I was before 04-05 and still is.

I think you thought I was saying that they still have the option and your right they don't want them to use that option but long before that release by rule you can call a 2 min check from behind or a major. They want the major called more now, you are correct and I agreed with you on that.

I think that should clear it up, were both seemingly saying the same thing.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

redhawkman10 said:
Nice win by OSU, beating Miami doesn't mean that much if you can't beat OSU the next night....:rolleyes:
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thats funny d-bag, you just upset that we beat you guys! You are pretty lame, i was at the game and we beat you guys so shut the hell up, have fun losing tonight and doing nothing in the NCAA's
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

Just ignore him. That would be the type of ilogical reasoning that an of ohio fan would use. --- if they lose to a team that loses to lowly Ohio State then that means the win doesn't mean much. Never mind the fact that if we are SO bad then losing to a team that loses to us should actually make their loss seem worse.

This was the same guy who called Ohio Stat bad for getting swept (in big rapids) by Ferris when the weekend before they got swept (at home) by the same team

I for one am hap¶y to get a split this weekend, and congrats to the Beavers on a well-plaued game.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

BuckeyeHockey said:
Just ignore him. That would be the type of ilogical reasoning that an of ohio fan would use. --- if they lose to a team that loses to lowly Ohio State then that means the win doesn't mean much. Never mind the fact that if we are SO bad then losing to a team that loses to us should actually make their loss seem worse.

This was the same guy who called Ohio Stat bad for getting swept (in big rapids) by Ferris when the weekend before they got swept (at home) by the same team

I for one am hap¶y to get a split this weekend, and congrats to the Beavers on a well-plaued game.
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actually they tied twice, but good try. If you want to count the skills competition good for you.

Look at what OSU has done this year, they have underacheieved. If you have been paying attention to your own thread all year I have been supportive of you, so don't be all bitter because someone shoots it straight. I am thrilled OSU won today, its great for the conference.
 
Re: Subway Holiday Classic (Miami, North Dakota, tOSU, Bemidji)

PCM said:
Again, you are wrong. I cited proof in the form of an NCAA news release. I'm sorry that you can't see it, but you are wrong. I don't have time to look it up, but my recollection is that for two seasons after the 04-05 season, checking from behind was an automatic major and game misconduct. The referee had no discretion to call it any other way.


The only part of your previous post I referred to was intent to injure. I agreed with you that judging intent was very difficult. However, knowing the outcome of an illegal or dangerous hit and knowing a player's tendency to commit those types of infractions is not difficult to discern.


For the third time, I agree. I also believe that given the current leadership of the WCHA and the apparent unwillingness of the NCAA to hold the league accountable for player safety, the type of added discipline I suggested will not happen.
Click to expand...

Since I am so wrong, please look at the first penalty of Miami-UND game and tell me again their is no option for 2 for checking from behind....:rolleyes:
 
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