SCOTUS 15: Help Us, Ruth Bader Ginsburg! You're Our Only Hope!

[psych]

Your concern is noted.

Thanks. Your complete lack of explanation about what happens once the GOP makes the SC 12-9 and beyond is also noted. You’ve got nothing.

 

[cF[Authentic]]

That 9-6 Democratic Court will be a 12-9 GOP one by decade’s end. Then what? Looks like American voters are currently sick and tired of nakedly partisan power grabs, which is why 2018 was a blue wave and 2020 may be as well. I’m guessing most of the centrists and/or independent voters voting D this election and in 2018 aren’t voting D to allow us to expand the Supreme Court. Scooby’s media would have the headlines written for them. Since a lot of posters on here value intelligence, or at least educated people, why don’t we persuade those new D voters, the educated, middle class people from the suburbs, to keep voting D? Don’t we want them in our party? I feel like there are a few independent and/or centrist voters on this board who could be persuaded to vote for court reforms, like diminishing the power of the Supreme Court for both parties, but could not be persuaded to expand the court with 6 more Democrats. These are smart enough, educated enough people who seem to be the new “swing” voters at the moment. Supreme Court reform needs to happen, but expanding the court is just one option- and it’s a blatantly partisan one. Lots of important voters don’t seem to want that, based on their votes in 2018 and 2020.

You're conveniently forgetting to mention the blatantly partisan actions that have led to the idea of expanding the supreme court. This isn't the Dems going rogue and setting a new precedent. This is the Democratic party finally reacting the way they should have for the last 40 years.

Assuming the Ds pick up control the house, senate and Presidency come end of January, now is the time to go all out. Make it damn near impossible for Rs to regain control of the Senate and the Presidency at the same time, welcome PR, DC, BayCali, LACali, SanDiegoCali, BendOR, NorthSeattle, SouthSeattle, WestSeattle, and EastSeattle as states. For too long the Democratic Party has been playing by rules that keep changing any time they lose office. Fuck that. If you've ever seen a mandate, this would be it. Do anything it takes not to lose it.

 

[unofan]

That 9-6 Democratic Court will be a 12-9 GOP one by decade’s end. Then what? Looks like American voters are currently sick and tired of nakedly partisan power grabs, which is why 2018 was a blue wave and 2020 may be as well. I’m guessing most of the centrists and/or independent voters voting D this election and in 2018 aren’t voting D to allow us to expand the Supreme Court. Scooby’s media would have the headlines written for them. Since a lot of posters on here value intelligence, or at least educated people, why don’t we persuade those new D voters, the educated, middle class people from the suburbs, to keep voting D? Don’t we want them in our party? I feel like there are a few independent and/or centrist voters on this board who could be persuaded to vote for court reforms, like diminishing the power of the Supreme Court for both parties, but could not be persuaded to expand the court with 6 more Democrats. These are smart enough, educated enough people who seem to be the new “swing” voters at the moment. Supreme Court reform needs to happen, but expanding the court is just one option- and it’s a blatantly partisan one. Lots of important voters don’t seem to want that, based on their votes in 2018 and 2020.

So in your world, the GOP gets to act blatantly partisan to lock-in a majority of the court, but if hte Dems respond in kind they're the bad guys?

You realize that is exactly what McConnell is betting on, right?

 

[psych]

;n3609269]

You're conveniently forgetting to mention the blatantly partisan actions that have led to the idea of expanding the supreme court. This isn't the Dems going rogue and setting a new precedent. This is the Democratic party finally reacting the way they should have for the last 40 years.

Assuming the Ds pick up control the house, senate and Presidency come end of January, now is the time to go all out. Make it **** near impossible for Rs to regain control of the Senate and the Presidency at the same time, welcome PR, DC, BayCali, LACali, SanDiegoCali, BendOR, NorthSeattle, SouthSeattle, WestSeattle, and EastSeattle as states. For too long the Democratic Party has been playing by rules that keep changing any time they lose office. **** that. If you've ever seen a mandate, this would be it. Do anything it takes not to lose it.

Conveniently leaving out? I’m well aware of what the GOP has done. That doesn’t need to be pointed out to me. The GOP can be beaten without stopping to their level.
My question for you is, how long will it take to do all of those things? I want DC and PR to be states too, assuming PR votes for the pro-statehood party in November. I’m not sure about East Seattle and BendOR (isn’t that GOP territory anyways?) but I’m cool with them becoming states in the future too. The problem with all of those states becoming states is it takes time. Time a lot of Americans don’t currently have. They need coronavirus relief. They need better healthcare. Etc., etc. If all Democrats do from Jan. 2021-Nov. 2022 is work to try and consolidate complete power, who do you think will vote them out come November 2022? Or November 2024? Get the things done that need to get done. Yes, get DC and PR in as states. Reform the Supreme Court. Also, pass lots of important legislation that help people. I think those things can be done in a couple years. And then, let the smart swing voters of 2020 vote for D’s again in 2022. Just keep winning elections and passing legislation with this mandate. Don’t use the mandate for blatantly partisan purposes. If everyone was as far left as me or Kepler in America, this wouldn’t be a problem. I wouldn’t even be arguing about it. But they’re not. Not yet, anyways.

 

[unofan]

The GOP can be beaten without stopping to their level.

If the Dems go all out, the GOP will likely swing back into power in 6-8 years because the American public will have forgotten about Trump.
If the Dems do nothing, the GOP will likely swing back into power in 6-8 years because the American public will have forgotten about Trump.

I say the Dems go all out to at least try to make these next few years as good as possible.

 

[BassAle]

Your concern is noted.

he's right. We're fucked, because most voters will let the GOP get away with this court packing, but will see expanding the size of the court as too radical.

 

[Slap Shot]

So when does it end - adding seats to the SC?

 

[SJHovey]

Thanks. Your complete lack of explanation about what happens once the GOP makes the SC 12-9 and beyond is also noted. You’ve got nothing.

I think you're getting yourself excited over nothing. No one is going to pack the court.

The Democrats in leadership positions have no interest in packing the court because they realize it's a stupid move, and probably unpopular with a substantial majority of the country. It's why court packing usually fails, even at the state level.

The number of shiny objects that will be distracting Democrats following the election are too numerous to list, and court packing isn't one of them.

Here is what will happen. Biden will win easily, and the Democrats will sweep into power in Congress. Yes, that will put the Democrats in full control. But it's also going to immediately alleviate all of this pressure that's building that "we have to do something about these nazis." The thinking will be, "hey, we won. Why do we need to make any of these institutional changes? The process as is worked."

The Supreme Court generally occupies the same level of consciousness for 90% of Americans as does that leaky gutter on the southwest corner of your house. They don't care, except when a new justice is about to be appointed, and then suddenly they are convinced this is the most important thing in their lives. Two weeks after Barrett is sworn in no one will care anymore.

The Democrats will be consumed, in the first six months following Biden's election, with a) "ok, now that we're in power, exactly what are we going to do about this Covid thing?", and b) how can we lock up Donald Trump? That's it. It'll be Trump taxes, Trump bank accounts in China, government money spent at Trump resorts, 24/7, at least for the media and for twitter.

Everyone else will be wondering when they get to go back to Vegas again.

 

[psych]

I think you're getting yourself excited over nothing. No one is going to pack the court.

The Democrats in leadership positions have no interest in packing the court because they realize it's a stupid move, and probably unpopular with a substantial majority of the country. It's why court packing usually fails, even at the state level.

The number of shiny objects that will be distracting Democrats following the election are too numerous to list, and court packing isn't one of them.

Here is what will happen. Biden will win easily, and the Democrats will sweep into power in Congress. Yes, that will put the Democrats in full control. But it's also going to immediately alleviate all of this pressure that's building that "we have to do something about these nazis." The thinking will be, "hey, we won. Why do we need to make any of these institutional changes? The process as is worked."

The Supreme Court generally occupies the same level of consciousness for 90% of Americans as does that leaky gutter on the southwest corner of your house. They don't care, except when a new justice is about to be appointed, and then suddenly they are convinced this is the most important thing in their lives. Two weeks after Barrett is sworn in no one will care anymore.

The Democrats will be consumed, in the first six months following Biden's election, with a) "ok, now that we're in power, exactly what are we going to do about this Covid thing?", and b) how can we lock up Donald Trump? That's it. It'll be Trump taxes, Trump bank accounts in China, government money spent at Trump resorts, 24/7, at least for the media and for twitter.

Everyone else will be wondering when they get to go back to Vegas again.

Yeah, basically more or less what I said in my post. I don’t think Democrats will actually do it either. But, this is a message board. People think differently than me on here, despite being in my party. I like the back and forth. Excited? Not really. Interested in the discussion? Certainly.

 

[cF[Authentic]]

The Democrats will be consumed, in the first six months following Biden's election, with a) "ok, now that we're in power, exactly what are we going to do about this Covid thing?", and b) how can we lock up Donald Trump? That's it. It'll be Trump taxes, Trump bank accounts in China, government money spent at Trump resorts, 24/7, at least for the media and for twitter.

Everyone else will be wondering when they get to go back to Vegas again.

And if they're smart (I'm not so sure they are), they'll let the states prosecute Trump so it's not an issue in congress off the top. Of course Covid becomes the #1 issue as it should have been since February and while there will be some quiet infighting (blown up by the media), something effective will be passed.
McConnel has shown the Senate can be lazy AF, while the House actually votes on ****. Imagine what a senate that actually does something other than literally pack the courts could look like.
There's not necessarily a need to move quickly, but there's a need to show some **** progress. People aren't just voting for Biden because he's not Trump. They want something effective, something different, something that will make their lives better. Most of America just doesn't know what that is because "socialism is bad."

P.S. Very consistent of you to tell everyone we're getting excited about nothing too big. A big **** you to you sir. There's a reason your ****ty counterpart Sicatoka has limited himself to stupid posts about hockey goalies and limited himself to the choir of racists at UND that currently lead the nation in per capita cases and deaths. Just tuck your head in the sand and ignore anything that's actually happening. GFY.

 

[Handyman]

I think psych is saying if the Dems do that a lot of people (not GOPers) will look at them as the bad guys which I will agree with. It will not be a move that is liked by a lot of people as it is happening and we already can tell the media isnt going to be friendly to it which risks Biden having the same issues Obama did. The rubberband results of that could be very bad. Trump was the response to Obama...what would be the response to SC expansion?

So the question becomes is it worth the risk? To him it is not because he believes we can win without overreach. He sees 2018 and what looks to be coming next month and sees it as a reversal of fortunes of sorts. I don't agree with that which is why I go back and forth about the idea.

The problem with his argument is it acts as though voters won't be conditioned to hate it anyways. Those new Dem voters are in part doing it because of what is happening with ACB and the threats the SC is to many important issues. Adding Justices will will help that issue so I doubt they will care much about that. The ones that will be affected would have been flipped for some other reason because that is the world we live in now. We cant govern based on what might be popular...that is what gets the Dems in trouble every time. Everything Biden and a Dem Congress does from now til 2024 is going to be labeled as Socialism/Communism. Everything will be Radical Left just like ObamaCare was. Nothing is going to stop that and people will fall for it, even educated ones. Plus, the Never Trumpers and groups like the Lincoln Project and their cohort are abandoning Biden anyways (until the GOP screws up again) so the shift is coming either way.

If Biden wins and is handed the Senate with it that is about as strong a mandate as you can get in one election. Look at what Republicans do when they get even a hint of a mandate, they put into action every pet project they have had in the hopper. They govern from a position of strength and act like they may never get another shot to do what they feel must be done. (yeah I am sugarcoating it) That is what the Dems need to do. We might only get a couple years to do this so lets empty out the bucket list, push all our chips into the middle and go all in. If that means adding a few Justices so effin be it. It may make me a bit uncomfortable, and it might backfire later on but I would rather go down swinging then wondering what could have been like we did with Obama.

 

[Handyman]

The States are going to prosecute Trump...the Dems in Congress wont do much about him. They are going to be looking at COVID Relief and probably voting rights first and foremost. There is a million things the GOP has broken over the last few decades and the Dems will be focused on that.

 

[Bronco]

The States are going to prosecute Trump...the Dems in Congress wont do much about him. They are going to be looking at COVID Relief and probably voting rights first and foremost. There is a million things the GOP has broken over the last few decades and the Dems will be focused on that.

It must be great to be a Republican. Spend all your time in power breaking things, then have the Democrats come in and fix everything, just so you can blame them again and break stuff all over again.

 

[SJHovey]

The States are going to prosecute Trump...the Dems in Congress wont do much about him. They are going to be looking at COVID Relief and probably voting rights first and foremost. There is a million things the GOP has broken over the last few decades and the Dems will be focused on that.

The states may try to prosecute him but there is no way a Democratic controlled Congress lets him slide. No chance. Furthermore, it doesn't matter who tries to prosecute Trump, any prosecution of Trump is going to immediately suck all of the air out of every inch of mainstream and social media. That's just the way it works.

I have stated on here repeatedly that Supreme Court justices tend to soften and move more gently to the middle, with time. Some move more than others, but there is always at least one or two who realize someone needs to occupy the center. Roberts has already done that, and will continue to do so. I can easily see Gorsuch doing so as well.

By and large the opinions that people really care about have not gone in favor of the more conservative position. For all of the attacks on Obamacare, it's still here, and isn't going anywhere (at least because of the Court). Roe isn't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere.

I just don't see it happening. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. But I don't think it'll be about this.

 

[RaceBoarder]

It must be great to be a Republican. Spend all your time in power breaking things, then have the Democrats come in and fix everything, just so you can blame them again and break stuff all over again.

That cycle won't stop until the current R population (40%) falls down to the 30-35% range... Their tantrums are enough to swing an election. We need to get to a point to where even if they get each and every one of their votes in, they won't be able to pull rank...

 

[psych]

I think psych is saying if the Dems do that a lot of people (not GOPers) will look at them as the bad guys which I will agree with. It will not be a move that is liked by a lot of people as it is happening and we already can tell the media isnt going to be friendly to it which risks Biden having the same issues Obama did. The rubberband results of that could be very bad. Trump was the response to Obama...what would be the response to SC expansion?

So the question becomes is it worth the risk? To him it is not because he believes we can win without overreach. He sees 2018 and what looks to be coming next month and sees it as a reversal of fortunes of sorts. I don't agree with that which is why I go back and forth about the idea.

The problem with his argument is it acts as though voters won't be conditioned to hate it anyways. Those new Dem voters are in part doing it because of what is happening with ACB and the threats the SC is to many important issues. Adding Justices will will help that issue so I doubt they will care much about that. The ones that will be affected would have been flipped for some other reason because that is the world we live in now. We cant govern based on what might be popular...that is what gets the Dems in trouble every time. Everything Biden and a Dem Congress does from now til 2024 is going to be labeled as Socialism/Communism. Everything will be Radical Left just like ObamaCare was. Nothing is going to stop that and people will fall for it, even educated ones. Plus, the Never Trumpers and groups like the Lincoln Project and their cohort are abandoning Biden anyways (until the GOP screws up again) so the shift is coming either way.

If Biden wins and is handed the Senate with it that is about as strong a mandate as you can get in one election. Look at what Republicans do when they get even a hint of a mandate, they put into action every pet project they have had in the hopper. They govern from a position of strength and act like they may never get another shot to do what they feel must be done. (yeah I am sugarcoating it) That is what the Dems need to do. We might only get a couple years to do this so lets empty out the bucket list, push all our chips into the middle and go all in. If that means adding a few Justices so effin be it. It may make me a bit uncomfortable, and it might backfire later on but I would rather go down swinging then wondering what could have been like we did with Obama.

I agree with almost everything you’ve written here. I’ve never been against governing from a position of strength. I’ve never been against not passing progressive legislation, given the potential landslide voters may give us come January 2021. I think we can reform the court without packing it, which can still preserve most, if not all, of the progressive legislation we’ll pass. That’s literally the only thing I think I disagree with people on in this conversation, far as I can tell. The voters gave us that without having to be blatant partisan a—holes. Yeah, they’ll take it away regardless of whether we pack the court or not, but why not just diminish the court’s power instead of packing it? I feel like that’s the real win-win.

 

[Handyman]

The states may try to prosecute him but there is no way a Democratic controlled Congress lets him slide. No chance. Furthermore, it doesn't matter who tries to prosecute Trump, any prosecution of Trump is going to immediately suck all of the air out of every inch of mainstream and social media. That's just the way it works.

I have stated on here repeatedly that Supreme Court justices tend to soften and move more gently to the middle, with time. Some move more than others, but there is always at least one or two who realize someone needs to occupy the center. Roberts has already done that, and will continue to do so. I can easily see Gorsuch doing so as well.

By and large the opinions that people really care about have not gone in favor of the more conservative position. For all of the attacks on Obamacare, it's still here, and isn't going anywhere (at least because of the Court). Roe isn't going anywhere. Gay rights aren't going anywhere.

I just don't see it happening. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. But I don't think it'll be about this.

Congress isnt going to do anything because there is nothing to do. If he is out of office there is no point to going after him. The DOJ and the States can actually take action against him. Hell I doubt they waste time even investigating the enablers still in office unless they can prove they colluded.

Its wishful thinking to think Congress is going to ignore everything else to investigate an ex President who they already Impeached. The Dems arent the GOP investigating Hillary.

 

[Kepler]

Thanks. Your complete lack of explanation about what happens once the GOP makes the SC 12-9 and beyond is also noted. You’ve got nothing.

I have already made my position clear. Power is useless unless you use it. If the GOP gets back into power and makes the Court 12-9 then so be it, in the meantime we will have had 4 years of 9-6 rather than 3-6.

The single lesson the Nazis taught us that we should remember is that power has consequences (1) if you use it and (2) only if you use it. McConnell's blockage of justices was insane and outrageous and broke all norms and made the GOP the bad guys for everybody with a brain. What is the result? Domination of the federal judiciary by GOP appointees.

That is power.

We have been trained since birth to worry about optics and norms, while all the while a ruthless opponent takes every tiny crack in the rules and bursts it wide open. And then our naysayers tell us we can't do that because (1) then we'll be as bad as they are and (2) the electorate will punish us for transgressing norms.

Well: (1) is nonsense. We aren't Nazis. If we obey the letter of the law then we are already head and shoulders above the conservatives, not even to mention that what we do will be for general welfare while what they do is for their own selfish enrichment. (2) is simply wrong. The electorate is now 100% tribal. The Right will howl like scalded babies because that's what they do no matter what. Our voters will support us because we are accomplishing things and improving their lives. The only reason our voters get tired and stop voting is when we do nothing, as you are counseling us to do.

I used to be in your camp but I've learned. All that stuff we inculcated with for all those years of education about soft power and norms is only viable when we are competing with an opponent who also observes those norms. When fighting Nazis those limitations are merely excuses not to confront and entitlements that if the worst happens then our refusal to do something will only doom the vulnerable. We'll be fine either way.

So you are being a concern troll. I sympathize because I know it comes from an honorable place. But at the end of the day it is an affectation of those who are insulated from pain. Tell Miss T it's a bad idea to add judges and save her right to live. I'm sure she will be far less patient with you than I have been.

 

[Slap Shot]

Kep I've respected your opinions far more often than not but on this one you're off your rocker. Packing the court is very bad optics I don't are how near in the future the % of orcs becomes depleted. The shenanigans from the right have turned a lot of heads. People have had enough and it's likely going to not only lead to Biden winning but quite possibly lead to the GOP losing the Senate. Having that amount of control will go a long ways toward the Dems proving they are the party of adults and can lead us into the future. Packing the court screams of bad behavior and quite frankly what have we seen from the SC outside of CU that has you so fearful?

No I am not being naive I am being practical. My posting history should reflect I'm nowhere near an independent, libertarian, etc. I believe in progressive and liberal ideals perhaps even to a fault. But packing the court turns my stomach and is a bad idea.

 

[psych]

I have already made my position clear. Power is useless unless you use it. If the GOP gets back into power and makes the Court 12-9 then so be it, in the meantime we will have had 4 years of 9-6 rather than 3-6.

The single lesson the Nazis taught us that we should remember is that power has consequences (1) if you use it and (2) only if you use it. McConnell's blockage of justices was insane and outrageous and broke all norms and made the GOP the bad guys for everybody with a brain. What is the result? Domination of the federal judiciary by GOP appointees.

That is power.

We have been trained since birth to worry about optics and norms, while all the while a ruthless opponent takes every tiny crack in the rules and bursts it wide open. And then our naysayers tell us we can't do that because (1) then we'll be as bad as they are and (2) the electorate will punish us for transgressing norms.

Well: (1) is nonsense. We aren't Nazis. If we obey the letter of the law then we are already head and shoulders above the conservatives, not even to mention that what we do will be for general welfare while what they do is for their own selfish enrichment. (2) is simply wrong. The electorate is now 100% tribal. The Right will howl like scalded babies because that's what they do no matter what. Our voters will support us because we are accomplishing things and improving their lives. The only reason our voters get tired and stop voting is when we do nothing, as you are counseling us to do.

I used to be in your camp but I've learned. All that stuff we inculcated with for all those years of education about soft power and norms is only viable when we are competing with an opponent who also observes those norms. When fighting Nazis those limitations are merely excuses not to confront and entitlements that if the worst happens then our refusal to do something will only doom the vulnerable. We'll be fine either way.

So you are being a concern troll. I sympathize because I know it comes from an honorable place. But at the end of the day it is an affectation of those who are insulated from pain. Tell Miss T it's a bad idea to add judges and save her right to live. I'm sure she will be far less patient with you than I have been.

Literally the only difference between our positions is I think court packing is f—king silly, and reform can be accomplished without adding justices. Suggesting that I’m saying we do nothing is laughable. I want basically everything you want done, minus court packing.
Miss T, I support your rights and your right to live the life you want. I work at an inpatient psych hospital, where one of the units I work on consists mostly of patients who have tried committing suicide because their parents hate them for being gay or transgender. I will never have to feel your pain on that level, but I do my best to empathize and support people with a similar background to you. And, unlike Kepler, I have never voted anything other than Democrat. I’m glad he’s evolved into the lefty I’ve always been, but I still don’t support his court packing proposition.