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Sayonara - Wayne State

Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

sbkbghockey said:
It's nice to see support for the program. Even if successful the damage is already done with recruits scrambling to find other teams and the CHA and other 11-12 opponents rescheduling the now open dates of the WSU schedule.

It's HORRIBAL how the university cut the program shortly after announcing the 2011-12 captains and schedule. I don't like to see any sports cut, esp hockey, and this was not the way to do it. besides appealing with Wayne State’s Board of Governors these girls and their families should get a good lawyer!
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I'm interested in what you think a lawyer could do. I don't like seeing the school cut its program either but if they are honoring all of the scholarships this year and under NCAA rules scholarships are only good for 1 year, what are the damages? Anyone can file a lawsuit (well almost anyone) but you should have a good idea of why you are suing, can you win and what will you gain by winning before suing.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

SlewFoot said:
I'm interested in what you think a lawyer could do. I don't like seeing the school cut its program either but if they are honoring all of the scholarships this year and under NCAA rules scholarships are only good for 1 year, what are the damages? Anyone can file a lawsuit (well almost anyone) but you should have a good idea of why you are suing, can you win and what will you gain by winning before suing.
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Lawyers are good at getting to the bottom of things. Some even work free of charge when the exposure is high. It's called foresight. With the kids scrambling though, it might be hard to put things back together. The kids can't play the game they love, if they choose to stay. It's a tough decision, and I'm sure they would consider this serious damage when their dream they worked so hard for is taken away, to go to school and play hockey simultaneously. A few years ago the men were given one last year to find other teams to go to, if they chose to do so. Not so with the women. Fair? I think not.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

CanHockGuy said:
Lawyers are good at getting to the bottom of things. Some even work free of charge when the exposure is high. It's called foresight. With the kids scrambling though, it might be hard to put things back together. The kids can't play the game they love, if they choose to stay. It's a tough decision, and I'm sure they would consider this serious damage when their dream they worked so hard for is taken away, to go to school and play hockey simultaneously. A few years ago the men were given one last year to find other teams to go to, if they chose to do so. Not so with the women. Fair? I think not.
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I understand the disappointment and the devastation. Its horrible what the school did to these girls and coaches but I still don't see the cause of action or the claim for damages at least in the girls case. The coaches on the other hand might have an argument, depending on their contracts, and there might be a financial settlement for them. Whether or not it is "fair" is, IMHO, not a legal argument for the girls. Not to say they can't sue. Often people sue and defendants settle to make it go away but I really am having a hard time seeing a strong suit for a substantial claim especially since the scholarships are being honored.
 
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Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

Kudo's to those that are mounting an appeal however my initial thought when reading this was that they are just prolonging the agony. Time is not on the side of the players trying to find a new home and extending the hope to June 22nd might not be in anyones best interest. Good Luck to those leading the charge though.

A good divorce lawyer might come in handy. I mean that's what's gone down here.

The parents couldn't make it happen and the kids got screwed. :(
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

SlewFoot said:
I understand the disappointment and the devastation. Its horrible what the school did to these girls and coaches but I still don't see the cause of action or the claim for damages at least in the girls case. The coaches on the other hand might have an argument, depending on their contracts, and there might be a financial settlement for them. Whether or not it is "fair" is, IMHO, not a legal argument for the girls. Not to say they can't sue. Often people sue and defendants settle to make it go away but I really am having a hard time seeing a strong suit for a substantial claim especially since the scholarships are being honored.
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Loss of dream to play olympic or pro hockey could be used, although probably more effective in men's hockey where post collegiate professional hockey opportunities are more prevelent. The legal issue here would be if there are Title IX issues that some reports are eluding to.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

sbkbghockey said:
Loss of dream to play olympic or pro hockey could be used, although probably more effective in men's hockey where post collegiate professional hockey opportunities are more prevelent. The legal issue here would be if there are Title IX issues that some reports are eluding to.
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Yeah, well Title IX issues are easily solved with copious amounts of rowers or baton twirlers or some other such slight of hand that meets requirements.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

Hux said:
Yeah, well Title IX issues are easily solved with copious amounts of rowers or baton twirlers or some other such slight of hand that meets requirements.
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Hey Hux, just curious, how did Menard get on BU without sitting out a year? What are the rules in this regard, does she just need a release?
 
CanHockGuy said:
Hey Hux, just curious, how did Menard get on BU without sitting out a year? What are the rules in this regard, does she just need a release?
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There are no transfer requirements going from the CHA to Hockey East. All she needed is a release from Syracuse to go basicially anywhere
She desired.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

sbkbghockey said:
Loss of dream to play olympic or pro hockey could be used, although probably more effective in men's hockey where post collegiate professional hockey opportunities are more prevelent. The legal issue here would be if there are Title IX issues that some reports are eluding to.
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Generally a violation of Title IX is a loss of federal funding. Individuals can sue under Title IX and get damages so there conceivably could be financial damages but I can't see the financial damage if scholarships are honored. Regardless, it won't help the girls play this year unless the University somehow agrees to a settlement of the case by agreeing to keep the program for one more year or the court requires the school to keep the program until this is all sorted out. I could be wrong but I don't think it is likely that a court requires the school to play this year while this is all sorted out since financial damages is probably the likely result if the plaintiff wins. The problem I see with suing under Title IX is that there is a vague duty to treat women and men as equals. I guess you could argue that the women should have been given a year's notice like the men. The only real financial test is whether or not there are similar amounts spent on scholarships. From what I understand, Wayne State is honoring all of the scholarships this year so that is not an issue.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

WHKY blogger said:
There are no transfer requirements going from the CHA to Hockey East. All she needed is a release from Syracuse to go basicially anywhere
She desired.
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Isn't it true that you can switch leagues and not sit out a year. But if you switch within a league like let's say North Dakota to Minny you have to sit a year even with a release?
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

WCHFan said:
Isn't it true that you can switch leagues and not sit out a year. But if you switch within a league like let's say North Dakota to Minny you have to sit a year even with a release?
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I think currently, that's true for the WCHA only. I remember reading either HE or the ECAC was considering instating a transfer / sit rule...can't recall which, but I don't think that has happened yet. As Hux notes in another thread, a transfer / sit rule is being considered for all women's D-I hockey...or so I've heard. Transfer & sit...transfer and play...whatever the rule...it should be uniform to all conferences IMO.
 
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Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

brookyone said:
I think currently, that's true for the WCHA only. I remember reading either HE or the ECAC was considering instating a transfer / sit rule...can't recall which, but I don't think that has happened yet. As Hux notes in another thread, a transfer / sit rule is being considered for all women's D-I hockey...or so I've heard. Transfer & sit...transfer and play...whatever the rule...it should be uniform to all conferences IMO.
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HEA is considering the rule however I don't believe it has been implemented as of yet. The WCHA has one basically (IMHO) to pacify a standing transfer requirement that the Big Ten has mandated for scholarship programs.

Personally I think anytime you are transferring and staying in the same NCAA level your currently in a year sit should be required unless your program has been eliminated (ie:Wayne State), there is a coaching change, or the athlete has completed a four year degree at their current school and still have eligibility remaining. I would only keep the current transfer system for kids transferring to another league after their freshman season only (this would cover 99% of the homesick cases, ect..)
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

WHKY blogger said:
HEA is considering the rule however I don't believe it has been implemented as of yet. The WCHA has one basically (IMHO) to pacify a standing transfer requirement that the Big Ten has mandated for scholarship programs.

Personally I think anytime you are transferring and staying in the same NCAA level your currently in a year sit should be required unless your program has been eliminated (ie:Wayne State), there is a coaching change, or the athlete has completed a four year degree at their current school and still have eligibility remaining. I would only keep the current transfer system for kids transferring to another league after their freshman season only (this would cover 99% of the homesick cases, ect..)
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As I understand it the coaches voted to adopt a complete sit rule across all leagues in D1 that will be implemented this season. Hockey East implemented the sit rule last season.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

SlewFoot said:
Generally a violation of Title IX is a loss of federal funding. Individuals can sue under Title IX and get damages so there conceivably could be financial damages but I can't see the financial damage if scholarships are honored. Regardless, it won't help the girls play this year unless the University somehow agrees to a settlement of the case by agreeing to keep the program for one more year or the court requires the school to keep the program until this is all sorted out. I could be wrong but I don't think it is likely that a court requires the school to play this year while this is all sorted out since financial damages is probably the likely result if the plaintiff wins. The problem I see with suing under Title IX is that there is a vague duty to treat women and men as equals. I guess you could argue that the women should have been given a year's notice like the men. The only real financial test is whether or not there are similar amounts spent on scholarships. From what I understand, Wayne State is honoring all of the scholarships this year so that is not an issue.
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Title IX is much more than just money spent or scholarships given. The fact that they are honoring their scholarships really won't mean much to any court. It's really about equal participation based on the student population. All the plaintiffs would have to argue is that the school isn't providing equal opportunity to the women on campus to participate in sports. Now, I don't know if they are out of compliance or not (or if this move puts them out of compliance), but if they are, then Wayne State would have a hard time proving they are in compliance with the "three-prong" test.
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

So correct me if I'm wrong. The men were given one year notice and then the program was shut down, then Wayne State honored another year of scholarships. If this is correct then shouldn't the women be given two years of scholarships as well?
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

RMUColonials said:
Title IX is much more than just money spent or scholarships given. The fact that they are honoring their scholarships really won't mean much to any court. It's really about equal participation based on the student population. All the plaintiffs would have to argue is that the school isn't providing equal opportunity to the women on campus to participate in sports. Now, I don't know if they are out of compliance or not (or if this move puts them out of compliance), but if they are, then Wayne State would have a hard time proving they are in compliance with the "three-prong" test.
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Wow thanks, that was going to be my reply almost word for word. Us hockey fans think alike. :)
 
Re: Sayonara - Wayne State

fireandice said:
So correct me if I'm wrong. The men were given one year notice and then the program was shut down, then Wayne State honored another year of scholarships. If this is correct then shouldn't the women be given two years of scholarships as well?
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Generally (and I believe in this case also), the athletes that have scholarships are honored for the rest of their 4 years at the school. So the current freshman can finish out college under whatever scholarship arrangement they had with WSU.
 
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