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Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Kepler said:
If you read anything I post here you know I do not sympathize.
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This:
Kepler said:
This guy isn't an idiot, though. He and his family went through hell to get out of Romania, and he, personally, is very impressive and level-headed. It's scary and demoralizing that he can fall for the RWNJ derp. He can think. He's just been brainwashed somehow.
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Is sympathetic.
 
Jimjamesak said:
It’s. Not. Fringe.

It’s. Main. Stream.
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I dont know how he doesn't see this. Fringe means they are hiding...Italy literally elected a fascist and France almost did twice. Right Wing crazies are on the rise everywhere and it isn't a non-trivial amount.

Kepler is like those people in the 20s who were just so sure none of the bad stuff was ever going to happen because people are smart enough to see through the stupidity. They aren't. People are stupid, selfish and completely myopic and have been since they were in caves. The more people you have in a society, the stronger that stupidity will grow. Throw in some really bad economic stuff and a few minor wars and evil has a nice foothold.
 
Jimjamesak said:
You may say this in jest but it’s the kind of thing that this world could use a little of right now. I get that plenty of you don’t like or want violence but we are at the stage where it is truly the only solution to our problems.

When putting them to shame doesn’t work, making them fear should be the next step.
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I am not one for violence and hope it never comes to that...but I get it. Like I legit understand why revolutionaries when they overthrow the Authoritarian Regime go way out of bounds stamping out the remnants of evil. If you give them an inch...they will take everything. Evil has patience and will wait it out. America is filled with that type of idealistic nonsense as is most of the West. Christ that is how Hitler almost took all of Europe. When WWII ended Germany wasn't going to let that happen again. Meanwhile we didn't even sanction the GOP leaders that supported Trump in his attempted coup...the Dems called them "friends" and tried to hug it out.

Put it this way...how much better off would we be if a certain "bullet" had been a couple inches over?
 
Handyman said:
I am not one for violence and hope it never comes to that...but I get it. Like I legit understand why revolutionaries when they overthrow the Authoritarian Regime go way out of bounds stamping out the remnants of evil. If you give them an inch...they will take everything. Evil has patience and will wait it out. America is filled with that type of idealistic nonsense as is most of the West. Christ that is how Hitler almost took all of Europe. When WWII ended Germany wasn't going to let that happen again. Meanwhile we didn't even sanction the GOP leaders that supported Trump in his attempted coup...the Dems called them "friends" and tried to hug it out.

Put it this way...how much better off would we be if a certain "bullet" had been a couple inches over?
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How much better off would we have been if we had hanged all the people from January 6th on January 7th?

We treated treason as a petty crime and let them regroup and take over.
 
And kep, going nuclear isn’t my intention- but I’ve seen you harshly call people out when you disagree or think what they said was stupid, and I feel like you can take it when you dish it
 
Jimjamesak said:
This:

Is sympathetic.
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I did mean it more as "it isn't useful to just yell EVIL; we have to diagnose the disease to excise it effectively." But as I have already backtracked on pretty much everything yes, the Times regrets the error.

These people are the biggest threat to the US, global stability, and by extension in a nuclear world human existence. The least we can do is hem them in with something as strong as the Dillingham-Hardwick Act.
 
Handyman said:
Kepler is like those people in the 20s who were just so sure none of the bad stuff was ever going to happen because people are smart enough to see through the stupidity. They aren't. People are stupid, selfish and completely myopic and have been since they were in caves. The more people you have in a society, the stronger that stupidity will grow. Throw in some really bad economic stuff and a few minor wars and evil has a nice foothold.
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I will never underestimate human stupidity and cupidity. I went to a public high school and I can read polling results. I know what we are dealing with out there. We are a handful of humans in a trough full of apes who never evolved.

But anti-democratic regimes all fall prey to other diseases. Democracy is the solution, but it has to be channeled by the 9 people out of every 100 who can think. The thing we forgot to do was make sure the apes all cancel each other out, but still feel ownership. Think of how the Right did this for 50 years: the apes blindly voted for them and felt seen by them, and in return the Republican party gave them NOTHING. We need to have a balanced society where both left and right hand that load of BS to the mob and then fight it out in an avocado toast-filled room to divide the spoils. We need to go back to where the ruling class understands that red meat appeals to the derps that bring short term wealth always lead to long term... well... this.
 
Kepler said:
I am not sure anybody is ever free enough from cognitive bias to take this as an absolutist hard line. Plenty of brilliant lefties in the 30s and 40s bent over for Stalin. Our world is what our prejudices say it is.
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Look no further than Israel. While the country does have independent media outlets, there are significant restrictions and government influence particularly regarding national security. The Israeli military requires journalists to submit security-related articles for approval, and censors can halt a publication if it's deemed to harm national security.
 
Jimjamesak said:
It’s not. Your first step is realizing this. Fascism is a popular belief among a good portion of the population and the voting results, not just in America, show it.
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I think this is a misstatement. I doubt that any within the group you refer to could even correctly define Fascism, let alone adopt it as a belief or credo. I believe a more correct statement is that a good portion of the population support political leader(s) who act in a way that clearly fits within the definition of authoritarianism or fascism.

I don't disagree with you, by the way.

I think the more interesting question is "why," because until that is clearly understood, and until someone figures out a workable solution to countering that reason, this will continue to exist.

Now, I know your theory is that these people are subhuman pieces of shit, as I believe you have referred to them. It's a theory.

Others think it can be neatly described by racism.

I have my own theory that strangely enough, comes from experience working within groups or committees that have a common task in front of them.

I think if you take any group of people and task them with an assignment (in the case of the citizenry in this country, elect a working government), a not insignificant part of that group is hoping that someone just takes charge and tells them what to do. They're hoping that someone steps forward and says "this is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to do it, and I'm going to take charge to get it done." And they will throw their full support behind such a person or persons, even if what is being proposed is not that great of an idea.

Why do they do this? I'm not sure. I suspect it's a combination of fear (they themselves don't know what to do), lack of intelligence (see #1), laziness, indifference. Who knows.

And I'll tell you what, when you see that happening within your group, it takes a lot of hard work to change perspectives of people, to get them engaged.

I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, nor do I pretend to play one on tv. But I would guess that many of you have participated on committees or groups and have seen something similar.
 
SJHovey said:
I have my own theory that strangely enough, comes from experience working within groups or committees that have a common task in front of them.

I think if you take any group of people and task them with an assignment (in the case of the citizenry in this country, elect a working government), a not insignificant part of that group is hoping that someone just takes charge and tells them what to do. They're hoping that someone steps forward and says "this is what we're going to do, this is how we're going to do it, and I'm going to take charge to get it done." And they will throw their full support behind such a person or persons, even if what is being proposed is not that great of an idea.

Why do they do this? I'm not sure. I suspect it's a combination of fear (they themselves don't know what to do), lack of intelligence (see #1), laziness, indifference. Who knows.

And I'll tell you what, when you see that happening within your group, it takes a lot of hard work to change perspectives of people, to get them engaged.

I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, nor do I pretend to play one on tv. But I would guess that many of you have participated on committees or groups and have seen something similar.
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People want to be led. In essence I have always believed this. Very few people want to lead. They want to be led. Oh, we all say we want to be independent and be able to do our own thing and even proclaim we like to take charge. But ultimately, most people want to be led.

Personally, I think it's an innate trait honed by evolution. It helped allow tribes to survive. And that's all nature cares about -- that a species acquires the necessary traits to survive.
 
There is more to it but in essence yes that is the case. Most people want to be comfortable and not have to worry about things. Democracy doesn't allow for this because for Democracy to work you need to be somewhat engaged. Dictators usually give you the veneer of freedom (something like Senate usually exists) while never having to make any decisions on your own.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...

In the end Authoritarianism usually ends up failing as well...for multiple reasons. Sometimes they push too hard and people push back, sometimes to acquire more power or to force more subservience they expand their empire to the point it no longer is feasible to control it, sometimes it collapses under the weight of its own debt...fully centralized power like that is no more stable. It might last longer (Democracy has never made it to 250 years) but sooner or later it fails. How and why depends on whether the majority feel their life is livable. Self interest is stronger than the need to be lead. If people are poor, if wars are forcing people into service or putting the populace in harms way then people no longer wish to be lead and wish for freedom. And the cycle then resumes...
 
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