RPI 2023-24: In Our 200th Year, We're Getting It Right

[sezenack]

I think Marty and Dr. Bowers were fantastic hires, and I'm excited for the future of RPI hockey regardless of what happens. I have full trust in them to make the right choices for the program.

Personally, I'm just not sure changing the coach does anything. We have had 3 different head coaches since 2000, and the records since 2000 are bad for all of them. Like I said though, I'm a fan through thick and thin and support the team and program regardless if they do go in that direction.

And I think Dave has gotten a raw deal here. COVID hits right as the team gets a top 4 spot before they can get back to Lake Placid. Then, the admin cancels the season as we're supposed to be building off of that, they lock the team out of all facilities, they refuse to even guarantee the 2021-22 season, they don't allow any fans in 2021-22, and lastly, they let his contract expire until Marty began and extended him. They lost him half his core and basically made it impossible to win recruiting battles during that time. Everyone can have their opinions on his coaching abilities, but there's no denying he's been dealt some terrible cards. I think you let him get another year or two given the long term impacts of the admin.

And personally, I just really want to see him succeed. Obviously, I interviewed him weekly while in school for a couple years and got to know him a bit, and he's a really good person with good character. This shouldn't matter for Dr. Bowers and Marty since I am sure you can the same for almost every coach, so do not take it as "they should keep him cuz he's a good guy." I sure as hell will always root for him to succeed though, and I desperately want it to happen at my beloved RPI. I hope all of you can still root for him and the program even if you want to see a change until the day that he's no longer the coach, whether that's in March or years down the road.

We're all on the same team here and want the program to succeed so cheers to that. If anyone else is at the Mayor's Cup next week, feel free to shoot me a message or email or whatever to say hi while I'm there! Let's Go Red!

 

[AspyDad]

I think Marty and Dr. Bowers were fantastic hires, and I'm excited for the future of RPI hockey regardless of what happens. I have full trust in them to make the right choices for the program.

Personally, I'm just not sure changing the coach does anything. We have had 3 different head coaches since 2000, and the records since 2000 are bad for all of them. Like I said though, I'm a fan through thick and thin and support the team and program regardless if they do go in that direction.

And I think Dave has gotten a raw deal here. COVID hits right as the team gets a top 4 spot before they can get back to Lake Placid. Then, the admin cancels the season as we're supposed to be building off of that, they lock the team out of all facilities, they refuse to even guarantee the 2021-22 season, they don't allow any fans in 2021-22, and lastly, they let his contract expire until Marty began and extended him. They lost him half his core and basically made it impossible to win recruiting battles during that time. Everyone can have their opinions on his coaching abilities, but there's no denying he's been dealt some terrible cards. I think you let him get another year or two given the long term impacts of the admin.

And personally, I just really want to see him succeed. Obviously, I interviewed him weekly while in school for a couple years and got to know him a bit, and he's a really good person with good character. This shouldn't matter for Dr. Bowers and Marty since I am sure you can the same for almost every coach, so do not take it as "they should keep him cuz he's a good guy." I sure as hell will always root for him to succeed though, and I desperately want it to happen at my beloved RPI. I hope all of you can still root for him and the program even if you want to see a change until the day that he's no longer the coach, whether that's in March or years down the road.

We're all on the same team here and want the program to succeed so cheers to that. If anyone else is at the Mayor's Cup next week, feel free to shoot me a message or email or whatever to say hi while I'm there! Let's Go Red!

I agree with this thoughtful post and good for you for defending Dave. I defended most vociferously the previous Coach and glad I did. Many of the same cards were also dealt to him about support of this program by the admin under Shirley (non existent). We've seen what he's done post RPI, which is nothing short of phenomenal. I'm glad to hear you trust in Marty and Bowers, that's comforting Can we wait another 1 or 2 years? I don't think so. Most likely, Dave knows he's on the clock because of the lack of the aforementioned media avails by others on this thread. I hope things turn around, this weekend made me less confident because we didn't give up 12 goals against QPac and say a Hockey East team but teams at the bottom of our conference. Enjoy the Mayors Cup,it will be another litmus test of where are visa a vie another team with similar recent challenges. Long live the Cherry and White!

 

[Ralph Baer]

A lot of posts here since the end of the DC game. I originally thought that the hiring of Smith was done in a very poor manner -- most of us did. We used a company which had no experience in the area rather than going through the standard hiring process. We picked a man with one good season at Canisius after many mediocre ones. He did not seem like a good choice, however until COVID he seemed to me like he was going in the correct direction despite having to deal with Shirley at al. I could not complain. Then COVID hit and we plummeted due to a missed season, etc. I could not blame Smith for that. He did seem, however, to be going in the correct direction again until this season. Although we were not getting top players, they were getting better, and those in the pipeline seem to be still heading upwards. However this year has not been good. He scheduled a very tough OOC schedule. I think that the laws of probability should have given us an upset win in one of those games. Anyway, we should have been prepared for the ECAC season, especially with very few teams who are even in the top half of the NCAA. We have not performed nearly as well as I would have expected. I do wonder how much sickness and injury we had this weekend. What was the situation with Watson? Tinling didn't play on Friday and although dressed on Saturday, did little. Etc.

I would not fire Smith at this point. We should wait to see how the team does the rest of the year. We need to do better than we did this weekend. Union, which to me has a poorer team on paper, has the same ECAC schedule as us and has been doing better. That hurts.

 

[Engineers]

Yeah honestly it's super frustrating to listen to every week. Dave is more than capable of answering hard questions. I think he has always done a great job talking to the media.

I think Kirk would be good, but my ONLY question with him is that he only has one year of college hockey experience. That is a slight concern, but I think his experience in Dubuque helps. Personally, I think Joe Dumais would be my top candidate if there were a coaching search. Natty with Quinnipiac and has helped turn them into what they are now. I don't think you should automatically elevate an alum to the top just because they're an alum even though I do like Kirk.

I believe Dumais and Riga were candidates at one point when they fired appert. I would put zero thought into kirk only having one year at the college level. We used that same methodology for the smith hire when we passed on Barr due to lack of head coaching experience. Clearly that was a bad decision

 

[Engineers]

A lot of posts here since the end of the DC game. I originally thought that the hiring of Smith was done in a very poor manner -- most of us did. We used a company which had no experience in the area rather than going through the standard hiring process. We picked a man with one good season at Canisius after many mediocre ones. He did not seem like a good choice, however until COVID he seemed to me like he was going in the correct direction despite having to deal with Shirley at al. I could not complain. Then COVID hit and we plummeted due to a missed season, etc. I could not blame Smith for that. He did seem, however, to be going in the correct direction again until this season. Although we were not getting top players, they were getting better, and those in the pipeline seem to be still heading upwards. However this year has not been good. He scheduled a very tough OOC schedule. I think that the laws of probability should have given us an upset win in one of those games. Anyway, we should have been prepared for the ECAC season, especially with very few teams who are even in the top half of the NCAA. We have not performed nearly as well as I would have expected. I do wonder how much sickness and injury we had this weekend. What was the situation with Watson? Tinling didn't play on Friday and although dressed on Saturday, did little. Etc.

I would not fire Smith at this point. We should wait to see how the team does the rest of the year. We need to do better than we did this weekend. Union, which to me has a poorer team on paper, has the same ECAC schedule as us and has been doing better. That hurts.

Ralph what if the team does poorly the rest of the season? would firing him be the correct move? What’s your take on this?

 

[Ralph Baer]

Ralph what if the team does poorly the rest of the season? would firing him be the correct move? What’s your take on this?

In theory, yes. That's what I meant by my second paragraph. I suspect that there may be extenuating circumstances which I do not know about. At least we now have a President and an AD whom I trust more than their predecessors to make the correct decision.

 

[engineerhockeyfan]

In theory, yes. That's what I meant by my second paragraph. I suspect that there may be extenuating circumstances which I do not know about. At least we now have a President and an AD whom I trust more than their predecessors to make the correct decision.

Extenuating circumstances is a great comment.
This team has no one who commits to defense. That is a recruiting problem.
Our special teams are an embarrassment. That is a coaching problem.
We can blame everyone for lack of leadership. And that is everyone's problem.
We have a new president and a new AD, and they have to get this organization back on track.
We need leadership from the president on down. I hope he has the commitment to this team to get the ball rolling.
This season is a disgrace, and we will have to live with it for the rest of the year.
And I will be here watching all the games and rooting as hard as I ever have for a great turn around and a surprise ending.

 

[Engineers]

In theory, yes. That's what I meant by my second paragraph. I suspect that there may be extenuating circumstances which I do not know about. At least we now have a President and an AD whom I trust more than their predecessors to make the correct decision.

Yeah I agree with you Ralph.

 

[Engineers]

In theory, yes. That's what I meant by my second paragraph. I suspect that there may be extenuating circumstances which I do not know about. At least we now have a President and an AD whom I trust more than their predecessors to make the correct decision.

Ralph you have been watching/following RPI hockey for a long time. Have you ever seen a season were we are this bad at special teams? Seems to me this season might go down as one of the worst seasons in terms of special teams and defensive play. I will say this if Dave was coaching anywhere outside of NCAA hockey he would have been fired 8 games ago. We’re currently operating a pk at 67.% clip. That’s historically bad. Your thoughts lol
Doc demento same question to you.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Ralph you have been watching/following RPI hockey for a long time. Have you ever seen a season were we are this bad at special teams? Seems to me this season might go down as one of the worst seasons in terms of special teams and defensive play. I will say this if Dave was coaching anywhere outside of NCAA hockey he would have been fired 8 games ago. We’re currently operating a pk at 67.% clip. That’s historically bad. Your thoughts lol
Doc demento same question to you.

Not that I remember, but I do not know how bad specific things were in 65-66 which was the worst overall. We gave up so many goals and scored few ourselves that special team stats were probably poor.

 

[DrDemento]

Ralph you have been watching/following RPI hockey for a long time. Have you ever seen a season were we are this bad at special teams? Seems to me this season might go down as one of the worst seasons in terms of special teams and defensive play. I will say this if Dave was coaching anywhere outside of NCAA hockey he would have been fired 8 games ago. We’re currently operating a pk at 67.% clip. That’s historically bad. Your thoughts lol
Doc demento same question to you.

Over the 60 years I have followed RPI hockey, there have been some truly bad seasons. As we all know, there have also been some of the best in all of NCAA hockey history. 1965-66 has been mentioned by me often as the worst I had seen. But, that was really kind of expected and the rebound from that statistically horrible year was rather quick and perhaps a bit astounding. The arrival of Dale Watson, Richard Scammell, et al had most of us forgetting that 3 win 19 loss season. The current situation is a bit different. Before the pandemic and the associated lock down, this team was making noise and was rapidly becoming the real threat at Lake Placid in the ECAC playoffs. I suppose many of us just felt that when RPI hockey returned we would just pick up where we left off. But the damage done by the decisions made was just so much more devastating tot he program than expected. Also, the situation now is far different than anything we had in the past with the introduction of the transfer portal. This is now 2024 and not 1966 and so much has changed that it is impossible to compare in so many ways. All aspects of rebuilding the program have changed and it is so much more complicated. Recruiting and also retaining any talented players is just not comparable to what the situation was 60 years ago. Even the academic structure of schools (RPI along with all the others) are different. And, let's face it, many of the boys looking to further their careers in hockey have an entirely different set of goals and aspirations in professional hockey than they did in the past. The NHL and other leagues are vastly different (I still have vivid memories of the 6 team NHL). The influx of foreign talent from Easter Europe and Scandinavia has added to the competitive aspect and decision making of where to play and whether to stay in the NCAA for 4 years or attend at all.
Just my thoughts of course, but I do not think there is any quick fix to the situation we find ourselves in. I may be one of the few seeing some silver lining through the clouds but I think we have some really talented boys (and girls for the women's team). As noted, and frequently posted, we will live or die with our special teams and defensive play and right now we seem to be suffering seriously because of it. I for one, am not sufficiently hockey smart enough to even propose how those aspects can be addressed. And i certainly do not know who is. If it was as simple as a coaching change, fine. But i do not think so and i think that will be just like going into a revolving door.
But since Jen and I have invested so many years as ardent RPI hockey fans, we are not going to allow this to stop us from following every game, every player, and watching or listening until the last moment of every game we can. Both of us keep repeatedly saying - "This Too Will Pass"
Just my take on this and a chance to rant and vent a bit.

 

[CMcGarvey]

I agree with a lot of this Doc, but I don’t get how people expected the fallout of covid to be easier than this. We were THE ONLY team nationally that didn’t allow fans for a season. After cancelling a season. How the heck do you sell a program when its administration makes those decisions. The dave seth thing can go on forever, but lack of admin support under seth does not compare to the covid choices made by the university, not in the slightest.

As far as this year goes, it’s been bad. Throw out the first year, but i believe dave’s teams through the Ture Linden year played connected and got the most out of their talent. That has been a concerning theme the last two years that players are not improving and the sum of the parts is less than it should be.

Impartially as someone who just wants what’s best for the program, wouldn’t firing Smith at this point be repeating history? RPI doesn’t have the financials to compete with big ten and HE schools. Didn’t they pay a big buyout to Appert which affected their ability to afford top candidates in the search? I cant remember if it was ever clear if we passed on Barr or if he wasn’t on board with what RPI was offering, but to me this feels like repeating fate after the extension. Maybe Marty and Kristie are committed to spending more on the team and can afford this, only they know that answer. As far as MacDonald, he seems to be doing a nice job in Dubuque, just remember you don’t hire an alum just to hire an alum, even though they always are at the start of the conversation. BB was SIGNIFICANTLY more qualified at this point than Kirk is now. that is not to say he would not do a good job, just the facts at this time. Probably could write a few more pages on this but i’ll call it here. Love the passion , let’s go red!

 

[troyboy]

Rodger didn't have to say anything at all about Dr. Bowers, and he chose to bring her up. Anyways regarding the extension, you can believe what you would like, and I will believe what I would like. You can disagree with it happening, and I respect your opinion of that.

I'm not discussing my current opinions right now. I'm just trying to take a look at this from a logistics standpoint. I think the extension makes it very unlikely he's let go. And Coach Vines is relevant to this because I highly doubt our understaffed AD wants to conduct 2 separate coaching searches at the same time for our flagship programs. They are in-depth and lengthy processes

This is a very easy lift the Guy to get the program back on track is sitting in Dubuque we need to put the full court press on with him we f'd up with Barr and it's not often you get a 2nd bite at the apple so we need to get this done get the program back going and get some fannies in the seats hw checks all those boxes !!!

 

[Engineers]

Over the 60 years I have followed RPI hockey, there have been some truly bad seasons. As we all know, there have also been some of the best in all of NCAA hockey history. 1965-66 has been mentioned by me often as the worst I had seen. But, that was really kind of expected and the rebound from that statistically horrible year was rather quick and perhaps a bit astounding. The arrival of Dale Watson, Richard Scammell, et al had most of us forgetting that 3 win 19 loss season. The current situation is a bit different. Before the pandemic and the associated lock down, this team was making noise and was rapidly becoming the real threat at Lake Placid in the ECAC playoffs. I suppose many of us just felt that when RPI hockey returned we would just pick up where we left off. But the damage done by the decisions made was just so much more devastating tot he program than expected. Also, the situation now is far different than anything we had in the past with the introduction of the transfer portal. This is now 2024 and not 1966 and so much has changed that it is impossible to compare in so many ways. All aspects of rebuilding the program have changed and it is so much more complicated. Recruiting and also retaining any talented players is just not comparable to what the situation was 60 years ago. Even the academic structure of schools (RPI along with all the others) are different. And, let's face it, many of the boys looking to further their careers in hockey have an entirely different set of goals and aspirations in professional hockey than they did in the past. The NHL and other leagues are vastly different (I still have vivid memories of the 6 team NHL). The influx of foreign talent from Easter Europe and Scandinavia has added to the competitive aspect and decision making of where to play and whether to stay in the NCAA for 4 years or attend at all.
Just my thoughts of course, but I do not think there is any quick fix to the situation we find ourselves in. I may be one of the few seeing some silver lining through the clouds but I think we have some really talented boys (and girls for the women's team). As noted, and frequently posted, we will live or die with our special teams and defensive play and right now we seem to be suffering seriously because of it. I for one, am not sufficiently hockey smart enough to even propose how those aspects can be addressed. And i certainly do not know who is. If it was as simple as a coaching change, fine. But i do not think so and i think that will be just like going into a revolving door.
But since Jen and I have invested so many years as ardent RPI hockey fans, we are not going to allow this to stop us from following every game, every player, and watching or listening until the last moment of every game we can. Both of us keep repeatedly saying - "This Too Will Pass"
Just my take on this and a chance to rant and vent a bit.

Goddamn doc you’re gonna make a grown man cry! Lol
In all seriousness you’re right it’s almost impossible to compare given how things are just so much different now. I don’t agree with the revolving door of coaches. If the new administration is serious about hockey and I have no reason to believe otherwise then you need the right coach. You can’t have a coach who can’t recruit the right type of players, can’t make adjustments whether in game or over period of time. The team is making the same mistakes over and over. Coaching today is so much more difficult than years past so it’s crucial you get the right people in. Also assistant coaching is huge as well. Comes back to the head coach he’s doing the hiring of his assistants. I firmly believe both Weber and Lange are great people and they’re most likely decent coaches but what the hell do they know about recruiting? Weber came from the pro ranks and Lange was in Europe playing? Where are their connections? You know why we’re getting out recruited is because we have the wrong people recruiting. Yes covid made it even worse but you’re starting off behind the curve with inexperienced recruiters. I have faith in the new leadership at rpi so I believe we will get back to relevance soon.

 

[troyboy]

Good for you, the team you allegedly root for is struggling and you can collect your trophies. I’d rather go down with the ship rooting for my team than be right.

Well said from the guy busy rearranging the deck chair on the Titanic.

 

[Engineers]

Well said from the guy busy rearranging the deck chair on the Titanic.

Haha that’s exactly what I was thinking! Shits going down man with your boy in the front row. Lol

 

[AspyDad]

Great post DrD

 

[Engineers]

I agree with a lot of this Doc, but I don’t get how people expected the fallout of covid to be easier than this. We were THE ONLY team nationally that didn’t allow fans for a season. After cancelling a season. How the heck do you sell a program when its administration makes those decisions. The dave seth thing can go on forever, but lack of admin support under seth does not compare to the covid choices made by the university, not in the slightest.

As far as this year goes, it’s been bad. Throw out the first year, but i believe dave’s teams through the Ture Linden year played connected and got the most out of their talent. That has been a concerning theme the last two years that players are not improving and the sum of the parts is less than it should be.

Impartially as someone who just wants what’s best for the program, wouldn’t firing Smith at this point be repeating history? RPI doesn’t have the financials to compete with big ten and HE schools. Didn’t they pay a big buyout to Appert which affected their ability to afford top candidates in the search? I cant remember if it was ever clear if we passed on Barr or if he wasn’t on board with what RPI was offering, but to me this feels like repeating fate after the extension. Maybe Marty and Kristie are committed to spending more on the team and can afford this, only they know that answer. As far as MacDonald, he seems to be doing a nice job in Dubuque, just remember you don’t hire an alum just to hire an alum, even though they always are at the start of the conversation. BB was SIGNIFICANTLY more qualified at this point than Kirk is now. that is not to say he would not do a good job, just the facts at this time. Probably could write a few more pages on this but i’ll call it here. Love the passion , let’s go red!

Yes firing smith would be a good thing. No it would not be repeating history. He didn’t deserve the 5 year extension. I hope people are aware the covid and canceled season has an expiration date. You can’t use this reason forever. Was it unfortunate and made things difficult yes. Is it everlasting? No so at some point we have to look reality in the face and say we have the wrong guy here. Something is amiss here. Barr and Macdonald are one and the same. Macdonald is just as good of a coach as Barr.

 

[AspyDad]

A point that both David and Ralph made regarding the strength of the conference is what is so salient to me. See both Brown and Union at the top illustrates where the league is and where RPI could be. Both Meehan and Achilles (I still call it that) are crap holes. Troyboy and I have been at Meehan where it was basically him and I as the only fans in attendance. So my point is you don't need a flashy new barn ( which I want) but need a plan and people to execute. We're not there.

 

[troyboy]

Yes firing smith would be a good thing. No it would not be repeating history. He didn’t deserve the 5 year extension. I hope people are aware the covid and canceled season has an expiration date. You can’t use this reason forever. Was it unfortunate and made things difficult yes. Is it everlasting? No so at some point we have to look reality in the face and say we have the wrong guy here. Something is amiss here. Barr and Macdonald are one and the same. Macdonald is just as good of a coach as Barr.

Let's do a history lesson for those a little newer to the Program Kirk was a great college hockey player and an even greater Engineer in his junior year he found out he had cancer he had to sit out his senior year to recieve treatment as everyone expected he kicked cancers ass and he chose to return to RPI to complete his degree and finish his D1 hockey career here, that's what he thinks about this institution(He was so popular with the fan base he could have been Mayor of Troy if he wanted). He graduated and had a killer pro career in the America League and has subsequently became a highly regarded coach. Do you think this is the kind of Guy a Young Kid,a Family Advisor or a Parent would want to drop his Kid off in Troy to fulfill his potential imo YES that is the bottom line of recruiting not the locker room not the building or not covid. This is what we lack and unless we change will never have.