What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

engineerhockeyfan said:
Doc, I was at Friday's game, and McGowan, Tinordi, O'Grady, Lee and Cullen all played better than I have ever seen them.
The only problem, was that Laliberte and Haggerty were almost invisible. If we ever get everyone going at the same time, we will be a tough beat.
Click to expand...

Way back I had thought we got the better of the Tinordis. His brother is a great talent but I never expected he would play a minute of NCAA hockey once he was drafted by Montreal. Every time I have seen Matt play-he has hit everything in site and he takes a hit without going down. He has taken a number of penalties, some of which might be ill advised, but he has the temperment on the ice that i wish everyone had. I also felt of the incoming class, McGowan was the most under rated. As you say, if we ever get this entire recruit class healthy and playing on the same page at the same time-we will have the nucleus in place for the next 3 years.
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

Anyone notice that UVM is currently in last in Hockey East? In addition, they've been in the bottom half the past couple of years (although were tied for 3rd in 08-09, and 4th the year before).

The reason I bring this up is sort of a devil's advocate to the argument about joining Hockey East. Obviously we don't have the privilege of knowing what they do next year, but it makes me wonder if the same thing would happen to us if we were to join HEA. Could this be playing into why the administration seems happy about sticking with the ECAC?
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

FlagDUDE08 said:
Anyone notice that UVM is currently in last in Hockey East? In addition, they've been in the bottom half the past couple of years (although were tied for 3rd in 08-09, and 4th the year before).

The reason I bring this up is sort of a devil's advocate to the argument about joining Hockey East. Obviously we don't have the privilege of knowing what they do next year, but it makes me wonder if the same thing would happen to us if we were to join HEA. Could this be playing into why the administration seems happy about sticking with the ECAC?
Click to expand...

I've got to believe that the administration is happy where they are, because of history and tradition. Also, we have not exactly lit it up in the ECAC in years, why go to a tougher conference right now?
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

engineerhockeyfan said:
I've got to believe that the administration is happy where they are, because of history and tradition. Also, we have not exactly lit it up in the ECAC in years, why go to a tougher conference right now?
Click to expand...

From what I can tell on collegehockeystats.net, UVM wasn't exactly lighting it up, either. Sure, they got a first round bye in 2004-05, but before that, one middle-pack year, and then almost consistently in the lower tier of the league (I went back to 00-01). Perhaps we're learning from UVM's possible mistake by staying where we are.
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

FlagDUDE08 said:
From what I can tell on collegehockeystats.net, UVM wasn't exactly lighting it up, either. Sure, they got a first round bye in 2004-05, but before that, one middle-pack year, and then almost consistently in the lower tier of the league (I went back to 00-01). Perhaps we're learning from UVM's possible mistake by staying where we are.
Click to expand...

You're talking with a bunch of people who actually remember Vermont's long ECAC tenure well, and you're trying to tell us how it was for them?

Let's take a trip down memory lane.

Vermont was very strong in the ECAC through most of the 1990s, especially during the famous St. Louis-Perrin-Ruid reign of terror.

Then, it turned out that they were hazing. Big heap no-no. They canceled their season midway through in 1999-2000, and thus started a precipitous drop-off that saw the Catamounts drop to the bottom of the league.

Fast forward to 2003. New coach. Announcement that the team was moving to Hockey East. Spike in recruiting. First round bye in their final season.

They move to Hockey East. UVM competes well for a while. Makes the Frozen Four in 2009. Loses some very good talent early to NHL contracts. Makes the NCAA tournament against the next year. Again loses some more good talent. They find it harder to compete in a very competitive league.

You haven't seen the last of Vermont in Hockey East. Someone has to be at or near the bottom every year. If you took six of the best teams in the nation and put them all in one conference, somebody's got to be in last place.

Please, FlagDUDE, stop. I know your heart is in the right place, but you're not doing yourself any favors when you try to do a critical analysis based only on what you know since you started paying attention and the limited numbers that you can look up on the Internet.
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

Red Cloud said:
You're talking with a bunch of people who actually remember Vermont's long ECAC tenure well, and you're trying to tell us how it was for them?

Let's take a trip down memory lane.

Vermont was very strong in the ECAC through most of the 1990s, especially during the famous St. Louis-Perrin-Ruid reign of terror.

Then, it turned out that they were hazing. Big heap no-no. They canceled their season midway through in 1999-2000, and thus started a precipitous drop-off that saw the Catamounts drop to the bottom of the league.

Fast forward to 2003. New coach. Announcement that the team was moving to Hockey East. Spike in recruiting. First round bye in their final season.

They move to Hockey East. UVM competes well for a while. Makes the Frozen Four in 2009. Loses some very good talent early to NHL contracts. Makes the NCAA tournament against the next year. Again loses some more good talent. They find it harder to compete in a very competitive league.

You haven't seen the last of Vermont in Hockey East. Someone has to be at or near the bottom every year. If you took six of the best teams in the nation and put them all in one conference, somebody's got to be in last place.

Please, FlagDUDE, stop. I know your heart is in the right place, but you're not doing yourself any favors when you try to do a critical analysis based only on what you know since you started paying attention and the limited numbers that you can look up on the Internet.
Click to expand...

As one that remembers UVM back to the Kirk McCaskill (a late '70s/early 80's UVM hockey/baseball player that went on to a long major league career) days I can say that FlagDude is not that far off. Others on this board probably remember back a few years further to Vermont's D-2 era. In general, the St. Louis-Perrin era was more of an abbreviated blip of excellence than an indication regarding UVM's overall history in the ECAC. They had some other good clubs but also many that were pretty weak, including those that preceded and came right after the 4 years that Perrin-St. Louis-Ruid (and Tim Thomas) were together. In fact, the state of the program was decidedly down before the hazing scandal ever happened.

Calculated over their entire history in the ECAC Vermont was probably an average to at best slightly over average team. One could certainly argue that was under-achieving and Gilligan wasn't a very good coach because they have one of the best college hockey environments to play in - everyone should go to a game at Gutterson Fieldhouse if they can - and a nice campus in a very good college town, but facts are facts.

As for UVM's Hockey East history it will be interesting to see if their run to the Frozen Four a few years back was also an isolated blip or an indicator that they will be more successful in HE than they were over the long-term in the ECAC. They peaked at a tie for third in the HE standings during their FF season. Now they are at the bottom. However, they really can't blame their precipitous decline on early departures - they just lost one player ahead of schedule from their Frozen Four team and, although he was their leading scorer, he only had one year of eligibility left. They've had a few other departures that sounded like discipline issues, but as far as I know only one player with significant future eligibility and potential (at least good enough to have Ralph stalking him as a potential RPI recruit). David Pacan left after one year, but even his one year college performance was hardly of the Pirri-D'Amigo level, so it is speculative how big an impact that had and definitely does not explain the current state of the program.

Bottom line: UVM was not a dominant program in the ECAC, but had one short tremendous period and a few other good teams along with many mediocre and poor ones. So far their HE history fits into the small sample size category, but it has been a mixed bag with the team currently at rock bottom. Only time will tell if they achieve some sort of steady-state in the league or continue oscillating pretty widely. It may well be that the FF team was an isolated situation driven by selling the excitement of a new coach and new league that is difficult to sustain over the long-term. In any case, it is not unreasonable to ask questions about their transition to HE and what it might mean for those that might follow.

P.S. For those that like to mourn local players lost, the third player on that awesome line with Perrin and St. Louis was J.C. Ruid from the Capital District.
 
Last edited:
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

Red Cloud said:
You're talking with a bunch of people who actually remember Vermont's long ECAC tenure well, and you're trying to tell us how it was for them?

Let's take a trip down memory lane.

Vermont was very strong in the ECAC through most of the 1990s, especially during the famous St. Louis-Perrin-Ruid reign of terror.

Then, it turned out that they were hazing. Big heap no-no. They canceled their season midway through in 1999-2000, and thus started a precipitous drop-off that saw the Catamounts drop to the bottom of the league.

Fast forward to 2003. New coach. Announcement that the team was moving to Hockey East. Spike in recruiting. First round bye in their final season.

They move to Hockey East. UVM competes well for a while. Makes the Frozen Four in 2009. Loses some very good talent early to NHL contracts. Makes the NCAA tournament against the next year. Again loses some more good talent. They find it harder to compete in a very competitive league.

You haven't seen the last of Vermont in Hockey East. Someone has to be at or near the bottom every year. If you took six of the best teams in the nation and put them all in one conference, somebody's got to be in last place.

Please, FlagDUDE, stop. I know your heart is in the right place, but you're not doing yourself any favors when you try to do a critical analysis based only on what you know since you started paying attention and the limited numbers that you can look up on the Internet.
Click to expand...

well said. UVM has a good history back to the pre-split ECAC. There was Kevin Foster, John LeClair, Kirk McCaskill, and Craig Homola to name a few from the 80's
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

ServinisScores said:
well said. UVM has a good history back to the pre-split ECAC. There was Kevin Foster, John LeClair, Kirk McCaskill, and Craig Homola to name a few from the 80's
Click to expand...

Here's a test to see who really is a long-term college hockey fan:

Without using Google, what is Craig Homola's claim to fame?
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

rpi82 said:
As one that remembers UVM back to the Kirk McCaskill (a late '70s/early 80's UVM hockey/baseball player that went on to a long major league career) days I can say that FlagDude is not that far off. Others on this board probably remember back a few years further to Vermont's D-2 era. In general, the St. Louis-Perrin era was more of an abbreviated blip of excellence than an indication regarding UVM's overall history in the ECAC. They had some other good clubs but also many that were pretty weak, including those that preceded and came right after the 4 years that Perrin-St. Louis-Ruid (and Tim Thomas) were together. In fact, the state of the program was decidedly down before the hazing scandal ever happened.
Click to expand...

I disagree with your assessment of the program before the hazing scandal, and every team has their ups and downs.
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

Red Cloud said:
I disagree with your assessment of the program before the hazing scandal, and every team has their ups and downs.
Click to expand...

The point is that you focused on the ups and ignored the downs. For example, in the 2 1/2 years after Perrin-St.Louis-Ruid graduated and before the hazing scandal temporarily shut down the program, their record was 28-47-9. You don't think that qualifies as a down period?

In fact, my characterization of the program's ECAC history was accurate, if not a little generous. If you take away the blip caused by the 4 years of the illustrious trio and Tim Thomas, UVM's winning percentage during the period it was in the ECAC was about 45%. There were some good teams during those years, including those headed up by one or more of the stars cited by ServinisScores, but overall they were a pretty middle of the road team.
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

rpi82 said:
Here's a test to see who really is a long-term college hockey fan:

Without using Google, what is Craig Homola's claim to fame?
Click to expand...

He passed on Herb Brooks invitation to join team USA while at UVM. He was going to replace #21 Eruzione!
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

I don't remember Ruid ever being on the radar for recruiting, although there wasn't a hotstove back then like there is today.
 
Re: RPI 2011-12 Part V: Don't Stop Believing

Post #137....I stand corrected. I think you are correct. Homola was also one of two UVM players in history to lead his team in assists for 3 consecutive seasons.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top